Author Topic: Vista be killin' my Freespace  (Read 8998 times)

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Offline neoterran

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
A number of items in your post are inaccurate, so i will kindly point them out for the discerning forum readers.

Oh, and the bit earlier about Vista and spyware is not a very good argument for the superiority of Vista.

I think it is, but there are many, many other reasons, but since you've already made your mind up, no point in going over them again.


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A properly configured and managed XP system is no more vulnerable than MacOS (Linux is another story) - but it'll take more work, because there's more out there to compromise it.
This is absolutely false, and betrays just how little you know about computer security and the architecture of modern operating systems.

No matter how "secure" you get XP (and it's woefully insecure out of the box) the fact remains that its security model is completely broken. In order to do anything approaching normal use, you must run as an administrator. with this system, any application with a flaw becomes an attack vector, because compromising it gives you admin level system access. Even if it is a flaw in your pdf reader, you can do anything at that point, system wide if you compromise the code. XP is inherently insecure in this regard. This is NOT the case on either Mac OS X or Linux, which implement a proper system, much like Vista now has, of not allowing applications administrator or root access.

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  Saying Vista is superior because it doesn't get spyware is like saying Macs are immune to all malware.  It just ain't so.  The userbase was small enough that there wasn't the volume of exploits as for XP.  That'll change.
Macs, Linux, and Vista all have a much more modern and secure Permissions structure, and this is why these systems will have less exploits. I will give you that since less people use the first two, they'll always have less.

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I'm not hating on Microsoft - I'm pointing out that poor performance is partially their fault.  Vista is a resource hog, and Microsoft is pushing DX10.  This all translates into reduced support for OpenGL-based applications.
The poor performance is soley the result of poor planning and execution on the part of the graphics card vendors.

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Yes, nVidia and ATI could both push out support for DirectX and OpenGL, but why go to all the effort when all the hype concerns DX10?  It's a financial call too.
It has nothing to do with Direct X 10. In fact, Direct X 10 is barely supported by anything at all at the moment, only 2 cards from one vendor even support it as of this writing. What it does have to do with is that Direct X 9 and below have a majority of games, OpenGL is not used by as many games, and this gap is increasing in DirectX's favor.


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Undoubtably, the bugs will get worked out of Vista,
All software of complexity such as a 50 million line operating system will always contain bugs of some sort.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 08:40:29 pm by neoterran »
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
I think I'm going to quit arguing the point as we're more or less saying the same thing.  *sigh*

EDIT:  And what we are disagreeing about, there's no point in arguing, since it's mostly a matter of opinion.
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Offline neoterran

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
I think I'm going to quit arguing the point as we're more or less saying the same thing.  *sigh*

EDIT:  And what we are disagreeing about, there's no point in arguing, since it's mostly a matter of opinion.

This isn't true, you're saying some quite different things, and as far as opinion, I think anyone educated enough about the issue would agree the security models and permissions structure in XP is worse than Vista, and also worse than in Linux and Mac OS X. That is a fact.
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Offline Taristin

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
Neoterran's right. There's a lot of misconceptions about Vista out there, and people are way too quick to blame it, rather than the real source of the problems, which more often than not are drivers.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
Neoterran's right. There's a lot of misconceptions about Vista out there, and people are way too quick to blame it, rather than the real source of the problems, which more often than not are drivers.

...and the point I was getting at is that the drivers and the support that hardware companies choose is shaped by the platform they are creating it for and the demands of the overall architecture...

So I'm not disagreeing on the principle here :P

...oh forget it, this is rapidly becoming a silly argument.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 11:01:19 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Taristin

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
But its not the platform's fault! It's the manufacturers who are hastily releasing drivers *glares at ATi*
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Offline Zacam

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
Not that nVidia has been any less hasty. And it _can_ be the platforms fault.

Do you know how many of what types of changes there are from the final RC for Vista and the actual packaged product?

A Lot.

The vendors typically have to wait UNTIL the packaged product is released before they can actually build something USEFUL, and usually the process of debuging is harder because information has been changed but not documented and the OS or software vendor will insist that nothing has changed and that the RC release notes for how do something "properly" is still being adhered to.....when it isn't.
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Offline Taristin

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
Well, no matter, since the drivers ATi released to work on RC1 didnt work that well either.
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Offline IceFire

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
But its not the platform's fault! It's the manufacturers who are hastily releasing drivers *glares at ATi*
ATI's actually come out on top of things with their Vista drivers as they are in relatively good shape in comparison to what nVidia has been through.

Keep in mind that the OS hasn't even been out for a month yet.  Yes the driver folks should have had their act together months ago with RC1 and the final code but they aren't and thats life.  If you dove into Vista right at the start you should have expected a bumpy ride.  I think ultimately it'll be a good thing for the Windows platform as it does some really good stuff...but support isn't there yet.  In 3 years it'll probably be the OS of choice...about the time that MS says its successor will be coming out :D
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Offline Taristin

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
ATi's been a mixed bag. Without sounding like a broken record, they have sporadic hits with DX working in full screen, but usually not, and only just now gave us OGL, which locks up my system.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
its a simple matter of if you use a new video card with a new operatig system, ****s gonna happen. i remember this happening with my banshee card and 98. :D
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Offline IceFire

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
its a simple matter of if you use a new video card with a new operatig system, ****s gonna happen. i remember this happening with my banshee card and 98. :D
I had a Banshee...those were teh crap (tm)!  At least for stability...on paper they were amazing.
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
Speaking of driver issues, Dell and HP are not releasing any PC's with Vista to consumers until April, just to wait for all these driver issues to get sorted out.
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Offline bizzybody

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
I just want Microsoft to roll every update post-SP2 to now into Service Pack 3 for Windows XP.

Yesterday I used the latest Autopatcher to update a HP laptop with an Athlon XP 1600+ CPU running XP Home SP2 (which I had to apply first, HP did something funky with the i386 folder so SP2 wouldn't slipstream into it) and it took OVER THREE HOURS to apply just the stuff from Microsoft in Autopatcher, none of the extra tweaks and goodies that has. (Says many thankyews to the Autopatcher ppl! I'd hate to have to have done that on my dialup through Windowsupdate!)

Fortunately Autopatcher can stuff all that on without needing a reboot until it's finished.

And while MS is at it, crank out SP5 for Windows 2000! NT4 got SIX service packs plus at least one 'security rollup package'.

It's bloody rediculous to install XP slipstreamed to SP2 or 2000 slipstreamed to SP4 then still have almost 200 megabytes of more updates and patches to install! Having 2K SP5 and XP SP3 to slipstream would make life so much easier for when it comes time to 'nuke and pave'.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
MS have stopped supporting 2k IIRC. Apparently it was too good to be an MS operating system and they need to go back to their roots. :p
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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
Holy crap!!

Guess what?  My PCI-E link width went from 16X down to 1X because of some of motherboard goofiness.  Now that I've fixed it the frame rates seem comparable, at least.  No wonder my performance was nosediving so badly, though.

Sorry for doubting you, Vista.   :sigh:  The drivers for you still suck, though. 

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
Actually, MS gave up on Win2k before there own licensing agreement says they're supposed to.  It entered a limited support section of its lifecycle in summer 2005, but before that point they had already stopped making their new software compatible with it, such as IE6 SP2 and WMP10 (well, WMP10 isn't a biggie, but they did put WMP9 on it, so why not 10?).  And I believe it should still be in its limited support phase, which I believe still means it should have had at least one more service pack.  But that's just how MS gets people to upgrade, tell you they'll have some form of support for 10 years and then not even make half of that properly.
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Offline neoterran

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
Holy crap!!

Guess what?  My PCI-E link width went from 16X down to 1X because of some of motherboard goofiness.  Now that I've fixed it the frame rates seem comparable, at least.  No wonder my performance was nosediving so badly, though.

Sorry for doubting you, Vista.   :sigh:  The drivers for you still suck, though. 

Yeah, it's the usual, microsoft gets blamed for everything no matter what.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
When you never take the blame for the cock-ups you are responsible for you can't complain when people blame you for cock-ups you're not responsible for. After all how are they supposed to know? :D
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Re: Vista be killin' my Freespace
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Yeah, it's the usual, microsoft gets blamed for everything no matter what.

Hey there we go, sport, that's the way to win graciously.  I as much as admitted I was wrong to blame Vista (going so far as to apologize to a non-sentient OS), and then commented that the drivers still suck.  Whether driver suckage is Windows or NVidia's fault (I'd have to go with NVidia considering they, well, make them).  Kudos are in order for being so super mature and not at all a dick about it.  You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.