Author Topic: Virginia Tech Shootings  (Read 33643 times)

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Offline achtung

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
1.  It's not so much the "stuff" as the principle of the thing with me.  While some people may not understand the difference between good and bad, and see stealing as a means of surviving, they also should understand that they risk retribution.  The legal system hardly provides any real retribution.  People who commit robbery usually get off with a simple slap on the wrist, or may not even be caught.  If someone knows they risk being shot when they try to steal from someone's home, they may think twice about doing it in the first place.

2.  I should have been more clear.  When someone shows "clear" intent to cause bodily harm.  Such as rushing you, or attempting to harm you with a weapon of their own first.
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Offline jr2

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
You ever have the oh-so-pleasant experience of force response under stress?  It's HARD.  Really hard.  Especially because many people who own guns don't really have an appreciation for how to use them properly.  Think of it this way:  if you divide a room into 9 mm squares, how many squares in it don't cover an assailant's body?  That's the number of chances you have of just missing entirely.

Yeah, there's definitely going to be an element of uncertainty of a criminal aggressively going up against a fellow with a gun - on the other hand, they may not know you have a gun.  Or they may think you don't know how to use it.  Or this may make them more desperate and inclined to use their own weapon.

I'm not saying people shouldn't defend themselves - I'm saying people need to appreciate the difficulties involved.  It won't be a simple matter of yanking your 'piece' from under the bed and popping a few shots at your attacker, and anyone who thinks this way is probably going to end up dead, maimed, or in jail.

Hmm, even point and shoot from the hip has better odds than that.  What you're saying is that you have as much chance of shooting yourself as shooting the attacker; you make no sense.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
Hmm, even point and shoot from the hip has better odds than that.  What you're saying is that you have as much chance of shooting yourself as shooting the attacker; you make no sense.

Actually, it makes perfect sense.

Law enforcement staff are trained that you require at minimum 21 feet of distance between yourself and an attacker, when prepared, to draw and fire a weapon in order to stop them.  That's when you're prepared for it.  To fire a weapon before an attacker can rush you when it has been drawn and aimed requires a minimum of 8 feet.  That's when you have the gun (or whatever) aimed at the guy's chest.  Any closer than that and he could stab you, knock your hand, etc.  If your weapon is in your hand but not aimed, you need about 12-15 feet, minimum.

How many houses have you been in where you would have anywhere near that much room between you and an attacker?  Furthermore, the attacker is prepared for the situation.  They are willing to use violence toward their own goals.  Is everyone who owns a gun for "self-defense" going to be willing to kill another human over a TV set?  Or may they hesitate?

In a home invasion or any sort of attack in confined spaces, unless you are trained and completely prepared, you have a much better chance of being maimed or killed by an attacker, even with your own weapon, than you have of stopping them.  How's that for sobering reality?  The odds are always in the favour of the aggressor.

I've worked in both security and federal law enforcement; I've been in some ugly situations.  I know the technical details and the statistics.  Anyone who tells you its a simple matter of firing a warning shot, shooting someone in the leg, or getting into a gunfight in the living room doesn't have a clue what they're talking about.  If you want to be serious about self-defense and defense of your home, then you'd better get some training on the subject, not justshove a gun (especially an unloaded "detterent gun", that's even more idiotic) in your bedside table.
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Offline jr2

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
Well, you're assuming the attacker knows as much about your residence as you do, and also that he knows where you are.  You're also assuming said attacker can see you, so you're assuming a daylight raid (not likely, IMHO).  If you wake up and an unauthorized person is in your house, I'm betting you'd at least be willing to make a barricade of your own room (ie, shut & lock your bedroom dorr), and get ready to serve hot lead to whoever came smashing through it.  Now, if you had little kids, you'd probably take a more offensive stance.  Of course, you call the police, when they show up 10-15 minutes later, maybe they can help if the matter isn't already sorted one way or another.

Oh, one more thing: I've heard before that the best weapon for home defense is a sawed off shotgun.  Then you don't have to worry so much about accuracy.

And, then again, if you have an alarm system, you may save yourself all of this trouble in the first place, unless the attacker finds & disables it.

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
An alarm system doesn't eliminate that whole time lag between the alert being sent out, and the police getting there.  It does help though.
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Offline jr2

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
I meant that it might scare the intruder off.   Especially if it turns on the lights & is really loud.

 

Offline Bob-san

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
The average burglary runs approximately 4 to 10 minutes. More organized criminals will find out how long it takes for the police to arrive on scene on a GOOD DAY. They'll aim for that time, minus 2 minutes. In, out, and gone in a few minutes. If I had anyone else in my house and someone walked in, be sure to God I'd do everything to stop them. Friends, girlfriends, wives, siblings, children, parents, &c. I would make sure that bastard would at least be in pain after commiting a crime.

I consider my stuff above a criminal; a criminal is no more important if they stoop to that level to enter someone's house they forfeit all rights as a person.

The US legal system is quite frankly ****ed up. A burglar broke into a woman's house, stepped on a shard of broken glass, and successfully sued the woman who owned that house! That burglar should have been put in jail for life! Instead, he got a slap on the wrist and millions of dollars!
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Offline jr2

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
Heh, check this out!

 

Offline Agent_Koopa

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
The average burglary runs approximately 4 to 10 minutes. More organized criminals will find out how long it takes for the police to arrive on scene on a GOOD DAY. They'll aim for that time, minus 2 minutes. In, out, and gone in a few minutes. If I had anyone else in my house and someone walked in, be sure to God I'd do everything to stop them. Friends, girlfriends, wives, siblings, children, parents, &c. I would make sure that bastard would at least be in pain after commiting a crime.

I consider my stuff above a criminal; a criminal is no more important if they stoop to that level to enter someone's house they forfeit all rights as a person.

The US legal system is quite frankly ****ed up. A burglar broke into a woman's house, stepped on a shard of broken glass, and successfully sued the woman who owned that house! That burglar should have been put in jail for life! Instead, he got a slap on the wrist and millions of dollars!

And now we get into the whole death penalty debate. Do you get to take away somebody's life, simply because they want to take your things? If there's a bully in your kid's schoolyard who takes your kid's lunch money, (You or I may not have kids, but this is just an analogy) then should you show up in a car and pop a cap in his face? Think what has to happen to somebody before they want to break into someone's house. Doesn't that person deserve sympathy, instead of your bullets? Do you treat a person as an inanimate object, simply because they made a mistake? I can't speak for the US justice system, and I doubt your story (has that woman ever heard of a lawyer?), but a burglar does not get life without parole in any justice system I've ever heard of.
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Offline Janos

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
Hmm, even point and shoot from the hip has better odds than that.  What you're saying is that you have as much chance of shooting yourself as shooting the attacker; you make no sense.

Actually, it makes perfect sense.

Law enforcement staff are trained that you require at minimum 21 feet of distance between yourself and an attacker, when prepared, to draw and fire a weapon in order to stop them.  That's when you're prepared for it.  To fire a weapon before an attacker can rush you when it has been drawn and aimed requires a minimum of 8 feet.  That's when you have the gun (or whatever) aimed at the guy's chest.  Any closer than that and he could stab you, knock your hand, etc.  If your weapon is in your hand but not aimed, you need about 12-15 feet, minimum.

How many houses have you been in where you would have anywhere near that much room between you and an attacker?  Furthermore, the attacker is prepared for the situation.  They are willing to use violence toward their own goals.  Is everyone who owns a gun for "self-defense" going to be willing to kill another human over a TV set?  Or may they hesitate?

You can still point the weapon in the general direction of the enemy and press the trigger, the chances are completely different than "split the room into many random 9mm squares and randomize". It does not work like that! Pointing a gun into the general direction of your enemy is almost instinctive - you can easily hit or hurt an enemy at under 10m distances without using sights at all. It might not kill them, but it will propably stall or incapacitate them.

I have trained close quarters combat with automatic and semiautomatic weapons, grenades and explosive ****. It's extremely difficult and I wouldn't want to face someone who knows what to do under those circumastances, unless I had some comrades protecting me. And grenades and stuff. Provable presence of a ballistic weapon has, in itself, a huge deterrance value.

Quote
In a home invasion or any sort of attack in confined spaces, unless you are trained and completely prepared, you have a much better chance of being maimed or killed by an attacker, even with your own weapon, than you have of stopping them.  How's that for sobering reality?  The odds are always in the favour of the aggressor.
But a weapon does not work like that. Even if you coldly calculate the distances, while taking note about general ballistics and hit percentages of said type of weapon under stress, the presence of a gun itself is a suppressive force.
Of course, if you don't know how to handle a gun and face someone who knows just how to counter a gun in close encounter, you're already ****ed - or, if you face someone who knows what to do, you're probably ****ed no matter what you do.

According to my training and the army guidebooks I waded through, when adversaries with similar training, similar weaponry and similar numbers meet in a built-up area, the defender has a slight advantage over the aggressor. In one-on-one situations the odds favour the defender.

Quote
I've worked in both security and federal law enforcement; I've been in some ugly situations.  I know the technical details and the statistics.  Anyone who tells you its a simple matter of firing a warning shot, shooting someone in the leg, or getting into a gunfight in the living room doesn't have a clue what they're talking about.  If you want to be serious about self-defense and defense of your home, then you'd better get some training on the subject, not justshove a gun (especially an unloaded "detterent gun", that's even more idiotic) in your bedside table.

Shooting someone in the leg is much more difficult than shooting a shot that is intended as lethal or noncapacitating. I

A gun is a tool - it's useless unless you know how to use it. In close combat guns, even assault rifles, loose to something more... instinctive, like a knife, unless you know how to deal with them and how to use your weapons (not very difficult). However, ranged weapons give you much more time to deal with your enemy than a melee weapon, but that requires training. Owning a gun does not constitute as training. If you have a gun, you can simply point it and press the trigger, even when injured.

lol wtf

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
The point of this condensed story being that, even if you don't fire a gun, just the mere sight of it, or sound of cocking, is usually enough to scare someone away.

Actually, I have a personal experience with nothing but a couple of warning shots scaring someone off, but it's kinda late to post that one right now.  I'll probably post it tomorrow.
That is exactly why people should have guns; even unloaded guns will defend you (and no I'm not talking about pistol-whipping).  What could be interesting is allowing anyone to have a gun, but requiring background checks for ammo and firing mech.


Why not just give everybody any gun they want?

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Offline jr2

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
define gun
=firearm
define firearm
do howitzers apply?

 

Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
The point of this condensed story being that, even if you don't fire a gun, just the mere sight of it, or sound of cocking, is usually enough to scare someone away.

Actually, I have a personal experience with nothing but a couple of warning shots scaring someone off, but it's kinda late to post that one right now.  I'll probably post it tomorrow.
That is exactly why people should have guns; even unloaded guns will defend you (and no I'm not talking about pistol-whipping).  What could be interesting is allowing anyone to have a gun, but requiring background checks for ammo and firing mech.


Why not just give everybody any gun they want?


Because that wouldn't make sense.  You don't necessarily need an assault rifle to defend your home when a pistol (or a shotgun) will do just fine.

What there should be is a required course (or mandatory extracurricular course) in high school about how to handle a gun and responsible usage... it seems to work in Switzerland pretty well, doesn't it?
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Offline Bob-san

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
The average burglary runs approximately 4 to 10 minutes. More organized criminals will find out how long it takes for the police to arrive on scene on a GOOD DAY. They'll aim for that time, minus 2 minutes. In, out, and gone in a few minutes. If I had anyone else in my house and someone walked in, be sure to God I'd do everything to stop them. Friends, girlfriends, wives, siblings, children, parents, &c. I would make sure that bastard would at least be in pain after commiting a crime.

I consider my stuff above a criminal; a criminal is no more important if they stoop to that level to enter someone's house they forfeit all rights as a person.

The US legal system is quite frankly ****ed up. A burglar broke into a woman's house, stepped on a shard of broken glass, and successfully sued the woman who owned that house! That burglar should have been put in jail for life! Instead, he got a slap on the wrist and millions of dollars!

And now we get into the whole death penalty debate. Do you get to take away somebody's life, simply because they want to take your things? If there's a bully in your kid's schoolyard who takes your kid's lunch money, (You or I may not have kids, but this is just an analogy) then should you show up in a car and pop a cap in his face? Think what has to happen to somebody before they want to break into someone's house. Doesn't that person deserve sympathy, instead of your bullets? Do you treat a person as an inanimate object, simply because they made a mistake? I can't speak for the US justice system, and I doubt your story (has that woman ever heard of a lawyer?), but a burglar does not get life without parole in any justice system I've ever heard of.
Has she ever heard of a lawyer? Definately. Have you ever heard of children? I am not going to disclose the names of my friend's family, beyond the children are named Anthony and Alex; I know Anthony quite well and I've met his sister a few times.

The whole death penalty debate. There is a differance between home invasion and a common bully. I would say something to the administration or teach my kid how to fight (as in karate, which I already practice). If a man walked into my home for less-than-friendly reasons, force will be used to protect myself, my loved ones, and my stuff! If that person must resort to crime to get money, ought he be on social security or something else of the sort? A serious criminal was a person who gave up his or her humanity. They did make a mistake; they could have done quite a bit to avoid it.

Burglars can be rehabilitated easier than most. Still, if they walk into my family I would fully plan to make sure they're carried out on a stretcher.


Note: The story is true though vague from two things; i don't give out the full names of friends and families online and I last heard the story about a year ago. Still, it is completely true from my memory.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
Quote
If that person must resort to crime to get money, ought he be on social security or something else of the sort? A serious criminal was a person who gave up his or her humanity. They did make a mistake; they could have done quite a bit to avoid it.

Burglars can be rehabilitated easier than most.

Now we're into layperson criminology.  Most people know less about crime than they do about quantum physics.

Constructing the criminal as an "other" is a serious mistake.  Most people have committed a crime at some point in their lives.  Crime is simply an arbitrary social distinction regarding an act - in general, crimes are the most serious social violations, but there are many others, and the definitions of crimes vary both across time and culture.

Most people who commit common property crimes (vandlism, petty theft, theft, robbery, breaking and entering, etc) come from a lower socioeconomic status - lower class.   In general, this correlates with poor education, substance abuse, broken families, etc (in fact, the biggest predictor of the class you die in is the class your parents were when you were born - so much for the "American Dream").

In general, the criminal element you're thinking of is actually characterized almost completely by people who have had no opportunity, whom humanity has abandoned, rather than the other way around.  Doesn't excuse crime, but it sure does point to how poor a job Western society does of understanding its causes.
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Offline jr2

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
@MP-Ryan:
Personal responsibility.  If you want to badly enough, you can make something of yourself.  There is help available.  The problem is that alot of people are too lazy, too uninformed, or too just plain rotten.  Sometimes it's partly society's fault; but still, if you are determined, you should be able to succeed.  This is America; if the folks at one town are unfair, you can move 1,000 miles away without asking anyone.  With all the stories you hear about people ripping off welfare, taking money under the table, and cheating Medicare / Medicaid, you'd think that we were being kind to a fault.  (Although I know of cases where the welfare ppl have unfairly denied access to people who need it... some of them seem to develop hubris.)

 

Offline achtung

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
The point of this condensed story being that, even if you don't fire a gun, just the mere sight of it, or sound of cocking, is usually enough to scare someone away.

Actually, I have a personal experience with nothing but a couple of warning shots scaring someone off, but it's kinda late to post that one right now.  I'll probably post it tomorrow.
That is exactly why people should have guns; even unloaded guns will defend you (and no I'm not talking about pistol-whipping).  What could be interesting is allowing anyone to have a gun, but requiring background checks for ammo and firing mech.


Why not just give everybody any gun they want?


Because that wouldn't make sense.  You don't necessarily need an assault rifle to defend your home when a pistol (or a shotgun) will do just fine.

What there should be is a required course (or mandatory extracurricular course) in high school about how to handle a gun and responsible usage... it seems to work in Switzerland pretty well, doesn't it?

I like that idea, quite a bit actually.
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Offline vyper

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
Switzerland has a rather different culture.
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
Switzerland has a rather different culture.

True, but gun safety is gun safety.  Americans still need to know how to properly turn on the safety and disarm a gun, right?

EDIT:  Looks like Texas pre-empted me.

http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba324/ba324.html

Quote
This is unsurprising, since the standards for getting a concealed carry license in Texas are the strictest in the nation. One must be at least 21 years of age, submit a photo and fingerprints for a background check, pay a $140 fee and take ten to fourteen hours of coursework. In addition, applicants must pass both a written test covering laws pertaining to deadly force and gun safety and a shooting accuracy test. Even with all of these hurdles, more than 200,000 Texans have received concealed carry permits.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 06:27:18 am by nuclear1 »
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Offline jr2

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Re: Virginia Tech Shootings
That (Texas) sounds like a good idea.