[Kazan]

we're not rendering POF's - we're rendering PMFs .. PMF stores information using the standard axis, just like OGL.   COB has weird axis, POF has weird axis... i hate working with weird axis

[edit[ i think i just found the bug... it looks like BSP data is being generated off the standard axis instead of off POF's axis

[Bobboau]

what we have now is wierd to me, not to mention it's what our source and destination files are useing, and what all other POF editing programs thus far are using, I think it's what 3ds max uses, so our entire user base (and half our developers ) is expecting x to point right, not left.

[Kazan]

COB isn't using POF's axis

given standard vector A,B,C

OGL + PMF are A,B,C
POF is -A,B,C
COB is B,C,A

[Bobboau]

in terms of what is seen in the model, though its
left, up, forward
I always think of x as right, most other people here do too, I think.

[Kazan]

exactly..... in POF +X is left....

OpenGL's coordinate system

[Bobboau]

ok, I want you to open up a pof, and place a subsystem, now orient the ship such that if you were sitting in the pilot seat everything would be oriented properly (camera behind the ship). if the subsystem's x component is positive, then it will be on the left hand side of the ship.

OGL's coordanant system has z comeing out of the screen this translates to forward being negitive z. if x is right, and y is up.

[Kazan]

you're used to odd orientation because when i say "right" i mean "looking at the coordinate system from the outside" - ie what that graphic shows

now "right when looking at positive Z" is another thing entirely... and it's what POF is doing IIRC - but not OGL, PMF or COB

[Bobboau]

when I say right I'm talking about the ship, I'm talking about what people are going to be thinking about. in this regard, there are three options, we have the x values flipped (current), we have the z values flipped (wich would be more like what OGL is thinking), or we flip nothing and make a projection matrix that flips it for us.

currently, x in terms of the model, is how far to the left of the ship something is. that seems very counterintuitive to me.

not to mention all this flipping is probably taking up a bit of processing that could be spent elsewhere.

[Kazan]

and POF and COB's weird ass coordinate systems are foreign to me and i dislike working in them.  we can put a little 3D control in the corner of the screen in PCS2 to show you how the coordinate axis are oriented but i'm not going to go through and completely rewrite PMF, COB->PMF, POF->PMF, PMF->POF to use the nonstandard coordinate system

[edit]
just commited changes that should hopefully fix the #07

oh.. and FOF uses OGL's coordinate system as well

[Bobboau]

I bet this will get reported as a bug more than once, and I bet it will cause a bug more than once. but it's your call.
I just wanted to officially state that, so we can move on.

ok, so just to make sure we are clear, on the model, x is to the left, y is up, and z is forward?

[Kazan]

the coordinate system i posted a picture of above is the one being used by PMF

[Bobboau]

and in terms of what you see on the model when you specify coordanants, x is to the left, y is up, and z is forward, this is how you want it, right?

I just undid my changes locally in regard to 'fixing' the flipped x.

the only other option is x is right, y is up, and z is BACKWARD, and that is clearly not what is showing on the model.

[Bobboau]

yes? no?
+x is the models left, this _is_ what you want? right?
that picture you posted shows +x pointing right and +z pointing back, which is NOT what our coordinate system is doing.

[Bobboau]

will you say yes already so I can consider this resolved and get back to work...

[Bobboau]

...well... anyway, raypicking should now be working for all omnipoint data, you just have to double click on the point and it will be selected, I also revamped omnipoint movement, so it should work a lot better now, so holding ctrl down while holding the mouse button down should move the point, and on top of all this I added a data menu, who's sole purpose was to act as an accellerator (aparently the native accelerator table is not quite working on all platforms, and this self documents the features) you can add/copy/delete any item/list without useing the buttons, so you could theoreticaly do 90% of you pof editing work without clicking on a single button.

[Bobboau]

in the off chance that someone has downloaded the raypicker build, I just fixed a somewhat nasty bug that got introduced when a CVS conflict caused one of my files to get reverted and I didn't realise what it had done.

also fixed the menu/keyboard shortcut thingy such that it actually works now (I had forgot to flag any of the array controls other than the one I was testing with... )




five posts in a row... that's sad... and it's not like there's a no time between them either... it's like there's only three people reading this 

[Bobboau]

unless I get some major objections I'm going to remove most of the existing toolbar buttons, the move and rotate buttons realy just aren't very usefull and have two other ways of doing the same thing a lot more intuitively and I need the space for other things, notably options for moving things (plane orientation, alignment and axis locks).

[Vasudan Admiral]

That'd be excellent - especially the axis lock. The little axes compass in the corner of the 3d window would be great too.

Can't test it till I get home tonight in a few hours, but I wanna know why we've got so few testers in here as well. This sorta functionality isn't time consuming or difficult to test, and there are still a lot of people who use PCS1 currently.

Personally I reckon we'll begin seeing a bigger response once it can begin shifting subobjects around, and also once bug 7 is completely squashed (seen the note in mantis btw - I'll test #7 out as well tonight), but the total lack of current testers is not helping us get there. :\

So, since red is attention-getting:
C'mon peeps! If you wanna see HTL versions of the really big stuff in the future, you gotta help us out at this stage, because this is the tool that will make all that and much more happen!

(Actually - it might be an idea if we could get some of the masses of new fans of BTRL to help out. A lot of them seem very eager to help out, and this would be a great way for them to do that. In fact the devs have said they're waiting for PCS2 to convert the battlestar models properly, thus providing said masses with motivation. )

[Bobboau]

it can shift objects around...
just select an object hold down ctrl and you can drag models around.

although now that I look at it it seems there are some bugs with that...

[Water]

unless I get some major objections I'm going to remove most of the existing toolbar buttons, the move and rotate buttons realy just aren't very usefull and have two other ways of doing the same thing a lot more intuitively and I need the space for other things, notably options for moving things (plane orientation, alignment and axis locks).

True a lot of those view buttons could be done away with.
One option is to have help>keyboard and mouse - with brief description of each function
You could also have front / side / rear view etc mapped to numpad keys. 7 top, 1 front and 3 side + shift for reverse side.
One way around the mouse zoom problem would be to keep mousewheel and shift+right mouse as is and add Ctrl right mouse to zoom a large amount