Author Topic: Fallout 3  (Read 8021 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Raven2001

  • Machina Terra Reborn
  • 211
  • Im not the droid your looking for, move along
IMO, that depends what a "real" Fallout game means for you. That is, what particular elements made what is Fallout.

For instance, I don't consider that TB+ISO is what makes a real Fallout game (in oposition of those more hardcore fans). I also think that sticking to that would indeed make it not sell.

Personally a "real" Fallout game is a retro 50's post nuclear setting, with gritty humour, compelling dialogue, moral dillema, freedom of choice (and I mean choice ie. cause\effect), consequences, a bit of free roaming, having the possibility of making any kind of character (and ending the game without firing a single shot). I think that would sell (KOtOR sold, Mass Effect is most probably going to sell, etc)
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

 
KotOR sold, but it's merely only a fraction of a fraction of the open-endedness and expansiveness of what FO was.  I myself am not interested in ISO+TB either (although TB in the KotOR style would be nice) but something as big as FO could simply be too much for people who want a quick fix.

SupCom takes a week to learn to play properly and you have to do it online.  That's already sufficient for a great deal of players to dismiss it as "very slow" and "having identical sides".

 

Offline Raven2001

  • Machina Terra Reborn
  • 211
  • Im not the droid your looking for, move along
well theres 2 kinds of gamers:
- the ones that just want a "quick fix", as you put it: tbh these arent the gamer an rpg should aim for

- the ones that want a complex game
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

 

Offline Janos

  • A *really* weird sheep
  • 28
KotOR sold, but it's merely only a fraction of a fraction of the open-endedness and expansiveness of what FO was.  I myself am not interested in ISO+TB either (although TB in the KotOR style would be nice) but something as big as FO could simply be too much for people who want a quick fix.

SupCom takes a week to learn to play properly and you have to do it online.  That's already sufficient for a great deal of players to dismiss it as "very slow" and "having identical sides".

I don't think that hypothetical quick fix players not buying the FO game is any kind of critique at FO game itself.

lol wtf

 
IMO, that depends what a "real" Fallout game means for you. That is, what particular elements made what is Fallout.

For instance, I don't consider that TB+ISO is what makes a real Fallout game (in oposition of those more hardcore fans). I also think that sticking to that would indeed make it not sell.

Personally a "real" Fallout game is a retro 50's post nuclear setting, with gritty humour, compelling dialogue, moral dillema, freedom of choice (and I mean choice ie. cause\effect), consequences, a bit of free roaming, having the possibility of making any kind of character (and ending the game without firing a single shot). I think that would sell (KOtOR sold, Mass Effect is most probably going to sell, etc)

All those things are important, but I think it's only part of the equation.  Iso is more a camera position then a gameplay mechanic, but I think calling a game a real fallout game without keeping much of the underlying game mechanics is missing a large part of the equation. 

 
I don't think that hypothetical quick fix players not buying the FO game is any kind of critique at FO game itself.
And if you read what I was writing, I'm not saying that either.


I said that I fear the game will end up with enough compromises for such players that the FO part might end up (severely) lacking.  Hopefully I'm wrong and I'll judge the game after it comes out, but at the same time I'm not holding my breath.

 

Offline diceman111

  • 28
  • Keep on playing Glottis, keep on playing.....
SupCom takes a week to learn to play properly and you have to do it online.  That's already sufficient for a great deal of players to dismiss it as "very slow" and "having identical sides".

Yes well Fallout 1&2 took about 10min or so to learn so I really dont think thats a problem
Flames Of War Chapter III - http://web.comhem.se/~u35702611

"If at first you don't succeed try a bigger thermonuclear weapon" - My philosophy on life

"I dont care if we smack it into her or smack it out of her just aslong as there's smacking invovled" - Max from Sam & Max Situation Comedy

 I live in Sweden and before anybody ask NO we do not have polar bears walking on our streets thats Norway, we have penguins (Red ones with blue dots)

 (These messages was brought to you by the people from DFWD (Diceman For World Domination))

 
:embarrassed:

I easily spent more than 10 minutes just on the character creator >_>


 

Offline Turnsky

  • FOXFIRE Artisté
  • 211
  • huh?.. Who?.. hey you kids, git off me lawn!
    • The Foxfire Chronicles
IMO, that depends what a "real" Fallout game means for you. That is, what particular elements made what is Fallout.

For instance, I don't consider that TB+ISO is what makes a real Fallout game (in oposition of those more hardcore fans). I also think that sticking to that would indeed make it not sell.

Personally a "real" Fallout game is a retro 50's post nuclear setting, with gritty humour, compelling dialogue, moral dillema, freedom of choice (and I mean choice ie. cause\effect), consequences, a bit of free roaming, having the possibility of making any kind of character (and ending the game without firing a single shot). I think that would sell (KOtOR sold, Mass Effect is most probably going to sell, etc)

All those things are important, but I think it's only part of the equation.  Iso is more a camera position then a gameplay mechanic, but I think calling a game a real fallout game without keeping much of the underlying game mechanics is missing a large part of the equation. 

the whole Iso debate is for the drooling fanboys to chew over, the ones that don't see the underlying strata of the game for what it is. if it keeps the same feel, the "Grit" of the retro-50's styled futuretech in a post-apoc setting, complete with all that's entailed, of course that won't stop folks from making comparisons, naturally.  what's gonna be important is what'll hopefully set it apart from other games.
The Foxfire Chronicles[/b]

   //Warning\\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
do not torment the sleep deprived artist, he may be vicious when cornered,
in case of emergency, administer caffeine to the artist,
he will become docile after that,
and less likely to stab you in the eye with a mechanical pencil
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
Eh, I think the actual game mechanics are just as important as theme and setting.  The armor mechanics, SPECIAL, critical hit tables, action point based tactical options, varying attack modes, ammo and weapon combined damage effects - these are all as much a part of fallout as retro 50's post apoc with dark humor.  Just taking the theme and setting and replacing the mechanics makes a side game or spinoff, not a sequel.

 

Offline Raven2001

  • Machina Terra Reborn
  • 211
  • Im not the droid your looking for, move along
Well, I dont see TB or Iso as necessary... not even SPECIAL tbh (although Id like to see SPECIAL in there). They dont set Fallout apart, they were part of many games already.

I think that if the devs take their time to think, they can come up with a nice RT system, that takes into account the full potential of SPECIAL (or any other stats "engine").

Ofc they can choose the lazy side as well: making a RT twitch system OR a TB system, and then Fallout 3 will be just "another game". I dont want that.

No offense to those fans, but I really dont see the problem they have into trying to innovate :\
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

 
I personally think the critical hit and aimed shot mechanics set Fallout apart every bit as much as the theme.  We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

The problem fans have with trying to innovate is that nobody actually believes they're going to do it - the fans as a whole don't expect a revolution, they expect beth to simply replace fallout's game mechanics with some other games, most likely Elder Scrolls.

  I personally am worried about innovation - but that's mainly because I've seen Bethesda implement game mechanics that were average at best, horrifically broken at worst, and never really amazing.  If they had a better track record, I'd be more confident, but looking at Obliv's level scaling, at Morrowind's enchanting and alchemy, and the rather painfully busy work leveling mechanics used in both, I find that very hard to do.

 

Offline Turnsky

  • FOXFIRE Artisté
  • 211
  • huh?.. Who?.. hey you kids, git off me lawn!
    • The Foxfire Chronicles
Well, I dont see TB or Iso as necessary... not even SPECIAL tbh (although Id like to see SPECIAL in there). They dont set Fallout apart, they were part of many games already.

I think that if the devs take their time to think, they can come up with a nice RT system, that takes into account the full potential of SPECIAL (or any other stats "engine").

Ofc they can choose the lazy side as well: making a RT twitch system OR a TB system, and then Fallout 3 will be just "another game". I dont want that.

No offense to those fans, but I really dont see the problem they have into trying to innovate :\

Given how SPECIAL was made for the fallout series, it'd be nice to see it make a decent return, 'specially since "Lionheart" was part of blackisle's death knell, and also used SPECIAL....poorly.
The Foxfire Chronicles[/b]

   //Warning\\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
do not torment the sleep deprived artist, he may be vicious when cornered,
in case of emergency, administer caffeine to the artist,
he will become docile after that,
and less likely to stab you in the eye with a mechanical pencil
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Offline Raven2001

  • Machina Terra Reborn
  • 211
  • Im not the droid your looking for, move along
I personally think the critical hit and aimed shot mechanics set Fallout apart every bit as much as the theme.  We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Those are important yes, I agree. However, you don't need TB in order to allow for those.

Come to think of it, perhaps were using the wrong words:
Mechanics - SPECIAL, and all its stuff, or any other system
Interface - TB, ISO, or any other system/viewpoint

Ill reword from this: I'd prefer if the mechanics would be kept the same, but I see no problem in a change of interface (if done right!) :)

The problem fans have with trying to innovate is that nobody actually believes they're going to do it - the fans as a whole don't expect a revolution, they expect beth to simply replace fallout's game mechanics with some other games, most likely Elder Scrolls.

  I personally am worried about innovation - but that's mainly because I've seen Bethesda implement game mechanics that were average at best, horrifically broken at worst, and never really amazing.  If they had a better track record, I'd be more confident, but looking at Obliv's level scaling, at Morrowind's enchanting and alchemy, and the rather painfully busy work leveling mechanics used in both, I find that very hard to do.

Gotta say I understand, and fully agree with that view, because its so true: their innovation results werent the best so far.
I do have the same fears, but I prefer thinking they can hit the jackpot this time, instead of thinking that they will do a stagnant work (be it TB or RT).

Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

 
I was trying to keep my big mouth shut, while reading this thread, but Raven, how is turn-based versus real-time not part of the game mechanics?  Lumping that in with the interface seems equivilant to saying the big difference between FreeSpace and Baldur's Gate were some minor changes to the GUI.  Sure, the interfaces are different.  There's no lead indicator ahead of enemies in Baldur's Gate, and I haven't got a quick-slot on my FreeSpace HUD for casting Cure Serious Wounds, but that's quibbling over details, while missing the grander picture.  In a less extreme example, consider the differences between Civilization and Command & Conquer.  They're both strategy game series, but the gameplay is fundamentally different between the two, primarily because Civilization is turn-based, and C&C is real-time.

Anyway, I think that there's not enough information out there to tell how faithful Bethesda will be to Fallout's style of gameplay.  They're certainly keeping with the art style of the old Fallout titles, which is promising.  I put myself in the camp that says a true sequel should have gameplay that at least resembles its predecessors.  If Fallout 3 is turned into a real-time, first-person affair, it will probably end up feeling more like a sequel to STALKER than Fallout.

 

Offline Raven2001

  • Machina Terra Reborn
  • 211
  • Im not the droid your looking for, move along
I was trying to keep my big mouth shut, while reading this thread, but Raven, how is turn-based versus real-time not part of the game mechanics?  Lumping that in with the interface seems equivilant to saying the big difference between FreeSpace and Baldur's Gate were some minor changes to the GUI.  Sure, the interfaces are different.  There's no lead indicator ahead of enemies in Baldur's Gate, and I haven't got a quick-slot on my FreeSpace HUD for casting Cure Serious Wounds, but that's quibbling over details, while missing the grander picture.  In a less extreme example, consider the differences between Civilization and Command & Conquer.  They're both strategy game series, but the gameplay is fundamentally different between the two, primarily because Civilization is turn-based, and C&C is real-time.

Not quite. In the case of Civ, TB is a necessity indeed, because each turn is equivalent to an amount of time that would be unbearable in RT (1 year iirc), not to mention you need to have lots of different actions each turn. In the case of Civ, the kind of interface it uses (TB)  is a necessity to gameplay.
That doesnt happen in Fallout. You can still have the core mechanics (SPECIAL) in real time. Because SPECIAL is not dependant on a certain kind of interface, to do its thing. That is, TB is not a requirement for Fallouts mechanics to function properly.


Anyway, I think that there's not enough information out there to tell how faithful Bethesda will be to Fallout's style of gameplay.  They're certainly keeping with the art style of the old Fallout titles, which is promising.  I put myself in the camp that says a true sequel should have gameplay that at least resembles its predecessors.  If Fallout 3 is turned into a real-time, first-person affair, it will probably end up feeling more like a sequel to STALKER than Fallout.

I share the same fear. Just keep in mind that RT is not equal to FPS. I dont want that at all either.
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

 

Offline Turnsky

  • FOXFIRE Artisté
  • 211
  • huh?.. Who?.. hey you kids, git off me lawn!
    • The Foxfire Chronicles
also, they had better keep the "bloody mess" Trait in there, that's my favorite!  ;)
The Foxfire Chronicles[/b]

   //Warning\\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
do not torment the sleep deprived artist, he may be vicious when cornered,
in case of emergency, administer caffeine to the artist,
he will become docile after that,
and less likely to stab you in the eye with a mechanical pencil
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Offline Raven2001

  • Machina Terra Reborn
  • 211
  • Im not the droid your looking for, move along
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


Raven is a god.

 

Offline Mefustae

  • 210
  • Chevron locked...