[Snail]

<nuke points at america>

Kabooooommmmm!!!

Okay, seriously

there are 2 kinds of history, the recognized history and the truth. the more time that passes by, the more the truth is lost. what we have isnt the truth, what we have is a bunch of filtered, misinterpreted, misunderstood and just plain mutilated history. opinions generated by so called intelectuals who get all their information from books written by the same kind of people who make opinions based on what little varifyable information they have. i may not have all the facts, but my point is that the historians dont have all the facts either. i merely add my interpretation to the mix.

Every word. Absolutely true.

[karajorma]

Under God does belong in the pledge

Why?

It wasn't there originally. It serves to divide the nation between those who believe in God and those who don't (Thereby making the entire pledge completely worthless to anyone who doesn't believe in God since they've already lied once reciting it).

I could understand if the pledge was traditional (like the British national anthem) but the pledge was changed within living memory. It's not a tradition that everyone grew up with for generations.

And the problem is that the pledge is then used to back why Christianity should be dominant over every other religion or atheism. If people were trying to claim that God save the queen meant that the UK had to step away from democracy and go back to having the monarch actually rule you'd probably get similar complaints in the UK.

[TrashMan]

There is one crucial difference: the United States governs under Rule of Law, not Divine Right. The very reason there was a revolutionary war 230 years ago was to assert that political power comes from the consent of the governed, and not from God.

I allways thought it was becouse the ruling monarchs were overtaxing jerks..

[Maxwell]

what we have is a bunch of filtered, misinterpreted, misunderstood and just plain mutilated history.

...and why is that? 
Its because you can't handle the truth!

Do you really want teachers to open every history class with a list of sins your respective nation has committed for the last thousand years (wholly removed from the context of what other nations have done of course)?
You want to teach little billy about the indian genocide, or how TR faked us into a preemptive war with spain that cost thousands of innocent lives, or maybe how your granpappies tripped themselves into a massive global war through their own apathy and incompetence?
For every mosquito bomber that zoomed under German anti aircraft guns to drop a bomb on a prison wall, releasing hundreds of captives, theres another guy that screwed the pooch and blew up hundreds more of his own men.

The truth is obviously still there for those who care to learn it... but few do because its uncomfortable.
History has been domesticated to something thats fit for teaching to school children.

It serves to divide the nation between those who believe in God and those who don't

At the time of its inclusion, most of American believed in God.
In retrospect, its done a piss poor job of dividing anyone.

Spending money to attack every schoolhouse ritual is simply wasteful.

[Nuke]

history has not and never will be fixed. it will always be subject to change, "revisions", "corrections", and "improvements". one day some archeologist will dig up some sketchy evidence of some historical hypothesis they have and as the result of it being blown out of proportion, all the textbooks will be changed. many will view this as another piece of the puzzel but how many people stop to realize what is lost by the addition of a possibly correct fact. history decays. and the older it is, the less likey it is to be accurate.

then you must take into consideration that the written historical record only covers perhaps less than 1% of the whole of human existance. the truth is not there to learn, it is gone forever. wiped from the record by simple human shortsightedness. how can you ever bother to understand history when you fail to understand its core nature.

[TrashMan]

You don't study what historians written happened...you study just the facts...make the conclusions yourself then.

[Wobble73]

You don't study what historians written happened...you study just the facts...make the conclusions yourself then.

And where do you glean these facts from??? History books! Written by historians!

[Galemp]

By the way... might I address all the critics who say I'm wasting my time worrying about this?

You're right. It should be meaningless, it ought to be traditional, and in the big scheme of things it's really not that important.

So why are new laws being passed on this issue, then? We ALL have better things to worry about.

[Nuke]

So why are new laws being passed on this issue, then?

because the world is run by monkeys
they are too buisy getting their way to worry about society as a whole. it is as it always has been and how it always will be.

[TrashMan]

You don't study what historians written happened...you study just the facts...make the conclusions yourself then.

And where do you glean these facts from??? History books! Written by historians!

Filter facts from oppinions. Western Roman Empire fell in 385 A.D. (right?), Hitler fought a war on two fronts, treaty X was signed in year Y, Z defeated G in battle of H. Those are facts. Causes are for you to pick up from that.

I had luck to have a great history teacher who tought us to use our heads and THINK..not just memorize years and stuff. To think was caused some historical events, what was the trigger, what were the consequences.

[Wobble73]

Filter facts from oppinions. Western Roman Empire fell in 385 A.D. (right?), Hitler fought a war on two fronts, treaty X was signed in year Y, Z defeated G in battle of H. Those are facts. Causes are for you to pick up from that.

I had luck to have a great history teacher who tought us to use our heads and THINK..not just memorize years and stuff. To think was caused some historical events, what was the trigger, what were the consequences.

But what facts are presented can be misleading, if you haven't got all the facts at hand then you can come to the wrong conclusion. If you weren't there at the time then you aren't in full possession of the facts. I mean, how many innocent people are jailed due to a lack of evidence or whatever!

Hell even witnesses to the same events can interpret them in different ways!

[Snail]

Filter facts from oppinions. Western Roman Empire fell in 385 A.D. (right?), Hitler fought a war on two fronts, treaty X was signed in year Y, Z defeated G in battle of H. Those are facts. Causes are for you to pick up from that.

What? And the fact that Hitler's evil is merely an opinion?

[Wobble73]

Filter facts from oppinions. Western Roman Empire fell in 385 A.D. (right?), Hitler fought a war on two fronts, treaty X was signed in year Y, Z defeated G in battle of H. Those are facts. Causes are for you to pick up from that.

What? And the fact that Hitler's evil is merely an opinion?

Yes, to the majority of people! To Eva Braun he was a lover! I mean in her opinion he wasn't evil, and to many he was a great leader!

[BloodEagle]

I've got a new idea! We should just scrap the whole thing and be done with it! Seriously. 

[TrashMan]

But what facts are presented can be misleading, if you haven't got all the facts at hand then you can come to the wrong conclusion. If you weren't there at the time then you aren't in full possession of the facts. I mean, how many innocent people are jailed due to a lack of evidence or whatever!

Hell even witnesses to the same events can interpret them in different ways!

You don't need ALL the facts..you need ENOUGH facts..or cruical facts.

What? And the fact that Hitler's evil is merely an opinion?

Precisely. We don't KNOW the man... For all we know the jews might have been mearly a tool to unite the people (to jumpstart them to follow him). He might have been insane..I don't know.

[BloodEagle]

What? And the fact that Hitler's evil is merely an opinion?

Precisely. We don't KNOW the man... For all we know the jews might have been mearly a tool to unite the people (to jumpstart them to follow him). He might have been insane..I don't know.

He wasn't insane, he was a drug addict... who got an STD from a prostitute (who is believed to be jewish). So... if anything, he was probably trying to get revenge for his own stupidity.

:EDIT:

I said it earlier... but, Godwin's law.

[Nuke]

clever law

[IceFire]

there are 2 kinds of history, the recognized history and the truth. the more time that passes by, the more the truth is lost. what we have isnt the truth, what we have is a bunch of filtered, misinterpreted, misunderstood and just plain mutilated history. opinions generated by so called intelectuals who get all their information from books written by the same kind of people who make opinions based on what little varifyable information they have. i may not have all the facts, but my point is that the historians dont have all the facts either. i merely add my interpretation to the mix.

you want proof of my theory?
<nuke points at america>

Depends on the history we're talking about.  My specialized interest in history is in World War II.  We know allot more now in publically available information about what happened during World War II than the individual people that were there during the war.

In slightly less subjective areas the realm of World War II aviation has never before been examined in such detail as it is now.  Reason being that documents that were thought lost have been resurrected and posted on the internet, government archives are being opened wide up, and information has been tumbling out.  We know more about which types of aviation fuels were used where than they probably did when it was happening as we now have the ability to take all of those bits of information and cross reference it all together.  Enough pieces of the puzzle and we're there.

Now I know what you're saying.  The old adages about how the victor writes the history books still holds true.  But I generally believe that to only be true in the general publics perspective.  To be very honest most people in the general public haven't a clue about history. Not one bit.  Totally oblivious.  One of my dorkier English teachers in high school kept getting Stalin, Hitler, and Churchill confused. That always threw me...

Once you get out of that and into some of the academia ...for all of those faults...we do have some very solid historical information and there is generally no problem distinguishing between things like hard numerical facts and first hand information versus a historian taking that information and synthesizing it into an argument.  Thats what historians do and to read that you have to use critical thinking skills.  I know you know this Nuke because you've basically written the same thing but this seems less obvious to some.

[Ace]

Now I know what you're saying.  The old adages about how the victor writes the history books still holds true.  But I generally believe that to only be true in the general publics perspective.  To be very honest most people in the general public haven't a clue about history. Not one bit.  Totally oblivious.

For the past two summers at least once a week I've had someone ask "So have you found any fossils?"

Paleontologists look for fossils and petrified wood. I'm looking for little obsidian fragments, and stargates... ermm... nevermind.

The moral of the story being, most people don't even know what different disciplines do.

[Mefustae]

Good point. People are stupid, throw rocks at them.