Author Topic: Trackir/Freetrack/analog viewpoint movement support?  (Read 14883 times)

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Offline Objekt

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Re: Trackir/Freetrack/analog viewpoint movement support?
First: Holy CRAP!!  That looks awesome!  And which mod is that where you're doing the head-tracking demos?  I've never seen those ships before, or that funky planet-with-vapor-trails or whatever it is in the background.  It's only recognizable as FS-related because of the HUD-elements.

Second: What is that helicopter sim where the guy is constantly overtorquing the engines?  I wasn't aware there was anything quite that advanced on the market, including such detail of Russian helos. 

Third: Of what use is head-tracking without a head-mounted display? I don't see what good it does me for the computer to swing the viewpoint around 90 degrees, because I won't be looking at the monitor anymore.  If I look up, I'm going to see the ceiling, not whatever's on the monitor.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Trackir/Freetrack/analog viewpoint movement support?
They have head-mounted displays coming pretty soon... there are versions that fit like a pair of glasses, in fact... I'll have to dig up those articles for you.

EDIT: here.  (Be sure to view all 3 images in the slideshow.)

EDIT2:

Vuzix (formerly Icuiti) (first picture in slideshow)

Lumus glasses (second picture in slideshow)

VRD (third picture in slideshow)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 09:41:57 am by jr2 »

 

Offline Objekt

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Re: Trackir/Freetrack/analog viewpoint movement support?
I hope the new generation HMDs are better than the crap they sold in the mid- to late 1990s.  Those were awful: low resolution, low feedback, enough lag between head movement and display update to induce spatial disorientation.  Remember the whole "virtual reality" craze that pretty much went away shortly thereafter?  Lack of decent HMDs was a big reason. 

Nowadays, I'd like to think we have enough processing power on our desktops to do it up right.  It wouldn't even have to be stereoscopic.  I would settle for a 1024x768 display, projected to a virtual 50" or so screen size, with at least 30 FPS.  Even 640x480 at 30 fps, with stereoscopic projection, would be pretty neat.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Trackir/Freetrack/analog viewpoint movement support?
See linkies in my EDIT2:, above.

 

Offline Deimos

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Re: Trackir/Freetrack/analog viewpoint movement support?
Second: What is that helicopter sim where the guy is constantly overtorquing the engines?  I wasn't aware there was anything quite that advanced on the market, including such detail of Russian helos. 
That's Enemy engaged: Commanche vs Hokum / Apache vs Havoc (both games integrate into one), with community patches and mods.

Third: Of what use is head-tracking without a head-mounted display? I don't see what good it does me for the computer to swing the viewpoint around 90 degrees, because I won't be looking at the monitor anymore.  If I look up, I'm going to see the ceiling, not whatever's on the monitor.
It's simple - the head movement is amplified - so for example when you turn your head 30 degrees, the game camera turns 170 degrees. Sensitivity and responsiveness can be adjusted in software to personal preference. You can set it so that small head movements are amplified only a little, and therefore very precise, but larger movements will become more amplified, allowing you to look sideways and back without loosing tracking precision around the center. Personally i prefer linear characteristics, without any deadzone, but it's just a matter of personal preference.
The Freetrack/TrackIR head tracking implementation is really intuitive once you get the hang of it, and works really well, even without HMD's. At first, i wasn't convinced of its usefullness as well, but after trying, i wish that every game supported it :D

 

Offline Objekt

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Re: Trackir/Freetrack/analog viewpoint movement support?
ooookay.  That sounds kind of weird, but I suppose one could get used to it.

Having a large, widescreen display would probably help.  I'm near upgrading to a 22" or 24"-diagonal widescreen LCD for my primary display.  I'm leaning toward 22", what with the huge price increase in going from 22" to 24".

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Trackir/Freetrack/analog viewpoint movement support?
First: Holy CRAP!!  That looks awesome!  And which mod is that where you're doing the head-tracking demos?  I've never seen those ships before, or that funky planet-with-vapor-trails or whatever it is in the background.  It's only recognizable as FS-related because of the HUD-elements.

the mod is nukemod (go figure), and can be had here. be advised thats an old version and doesnt include the camera script. next version will have some more models with cockpits and perhaps some demo scripts (assuming i can take all the bugs out of em).

They have head-mounted displays coming pretty soon... there are versions that fit like a pair of glasses, in fact... I'll have to dig up those articles for you.

EDIT: here.  (Be sure to view all 3 images in the slideshow.)

EDIT2:

Vuzix (formerly Icuiti) (first picture in slideshow)

Lumus glasses (second picture in slideshow)

VRD (third picture in slideshow)

i was actually looking at the vuzix vr9200 the other day on the flightsim.com pilot shop. while modern computers are fully capable of driving high res stereoscopic displays, and run head tracking systems such as the track ir (and both quite well). the only thing really missing is the hmd (and nvidia needs to update their stereo drivers too :D ). this one is ok but it could be better. for example it could be made wireless and use higher res screens. a pair of 800*600 screens would be nice, at least then you could get some vertical resolution. im pretty sure such lcds exist for things like video projectors. 

to drive a stereoscopic 800 * 600 display @ 24 bit, 60 fps would require a 173 MB/sec (111 for 640*480) one way transfer rate. thats alot of throughput, enough to overload any current wireless technology. you could probably transmit the data as analog or use compression. dxt1 compression would reduce it 8:1 and bring it down to 21.6MB/sec (640*480 it would be 13.9 m/s). this would allow the video to be sent with wifi, bluetooth (unlikely) or wireless usb (maybe, i havent seen the specs). a transmitter station would need to be connected to the video card and probibly require its own power.

the main problem with most hmds is they try to do too much. i find alot of units with earbuds and with motion trackers built in. all it really needs to do is be a stereoscopic display. a good surround system and camera based motion tracking. for sound the game needs to get player position and orientation data and factor that into 3d sound rendering. for tracking, i find single camera tracking works so long as you face a general direction. if you mount the camera high and at an angle, and use bright leds for markers, you will greatly increase your range of motion. id like to see a stereo tracking camera, or single camera array. but more cameras and more markers = more expensive, and more complicated software.

eventually id like to play an fps game, by standing in the middle of the room with a gun shaped controller that worked like a gun works, having its orientation and posotion tracked. as you move it around the gun in the game moves. you can turn around to face any direction. when you jump your character jumps and when you crouch or go prone your character does likewise. if you take a couple steps forward from the middle you walk forward and stop when you return to the middle (a human joystick approach that keeps you from running into the walls). when you attack an enemy you actually have to aim your weapon and you could look down the iron sights in the game. this is what i want. all with no wires and with your computer off in a corner.

ooookay.  That sounds kind of weird, but I suppose one could get used to it.

Having a large, widescreen display would probably help.  I'm near upgrading to a 22" or 24"-diagonal widescreen LCD for my primary display.  I'm leaning toward 22", what with the huge price increase in going from 22" to 24".

its easy to get used to if you use it all the time. its really only useful for controlling a view within a cockpit environment, ive seen fps implementations but ive never tried it that way. you could run 3 monitors in an arcing configuration which would be totally awesome. there are also video domes out there, while expensive they give you a full wrap around screen thats pretty sweet.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 07:26:40 pm by Nuke »
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline Objekt

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Re: Trackir/Freetrack/analog viewpoint movement support?
Certanly, we'll have to have virtual cockpits, or some way of seeing parts of your own ship, for this to be useful in FS.  You need some kind of visual reference to know where you're looking.  I'm thinking of the "padlock" view found in some combat flightsims, since at least Falcon 3.0.

Having 3 displays would be killer, but neither my computer desk nor budget will support it. 8)

 

Offline n0s

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Re: Trackir/Freetrack/analog viewpoint movement support?
@ nuke, if u could fix the bugs, would it be possible to implement the script into fs scp? maybe it could be enabled through a launcher flag or so...

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Trackir/Freetrack/analog viewpoint movement support?
id like too but i really dont have a clue how freespace works on the inside. i like to think the coders are already working on such things. better input, native track ir etc. the camera script isnt that complicated. only thing stopping it is the fact that its unscriptable under the stable branch. that too is something thats being worked on. things like the clipping plane with scripted cameras are completely out of my control.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline n0s

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Re: Trackir/Freetrack/analog viewpoint movement support?
ok  :D