[Jeff Vader]

If it was the most modern fighter the GTVA had you can bet it had some shivan lineage in it..

But it was never explicitly stated that they had Shivan tech in them. Therefore, it is pure speculation to assume that they had Shivan tech in them.

Not shivan tech directly..shivan DERIVED tech.

Well, the word 'derived' wasn't used either. No canon proof that there's anything in those ships that's even remotely related to Shivans. Apart from Kaysers.

[AlphaOne]

and the fact that the first time i saw the Ares i believed it to be some sort of wierd shivan ship has nothing to do with my belief that the Design of the Ares was in some ways influenced by the shivans and in some tech aspect perhaps. Also i see you keep dodging the terrna Mara a fluke yes a definitive prototipe for futher maras or derivatives off it perhaps some of them more powerfull of course.

[TrashMan]

Well, the word 'derived' wasn't used either. No canon proof that there's anything in those ships that's even remotely related to Shivans. Apart from Kaysers.

Common sense.

Most advanced ships use most advanced tech.
Most advanced tech the GTVA has undoubtedly has had a huge shivan influence. 32 years of studying shivan craft and weapons - I'd say every new craft has some "shivan" in it.

[Jeff Vader]

Well if we think about the term 'Shivan influence' as wide as possible, don't you think that Terran ships had Shivan influence back in the Great war? I mean, they did capture a Dragon and study it. They reverse-engineered it. They monitored Shivan fighters and learnt how to enable inter-system jumps for fighters. So in this case we shouldn't state that 'new' craft have some Shivan in them, when probably the originall Hercules had 'some Shivan' in it. As well as some older weapons. Not to mention sensors, shields and such. Right?

[karajorma]

I said if you want to make a ACCURATE comparison in terms of the power of both sides (Sol & GTVA), not in terms of RL. Since when does Sol have uber-super weapons(the proverbial nukes) and the GTVA doesn't?

I was explaining he pointlessness of your GTVA has 20 systems while Sol has 1 nonsense and nothing more. It matters not how many systems the GTVA has. What matters is the combined military might of those systems.



1. ManpowerCapella, which on the far side of nowhere has 250 million humans. Look how far it is from Sol and the core of human space - it's definately a later colony.
It's safe to assume that the inner colonies are far better off and with a much higher population, especially the first colonies, like Delta Serpentis. Population is becoming a problem now, so it's safe to assume there's been a LOT of immigration.
It's a safe bet that just the human colonies have a bigger population than Earth. Now factor in the vasudans.[/quote]

It's not a safe bet in the slightest. If subspace was only discovered 10 years before the start of the TV war it's doubtful that there were anywhere near that number. Capella is also the home of the 3rd fleet. That indicates it's quite a powerful system regardless of its age or distance from Sol. Again I'll point out that Luyten went from uninhabited to regional power in under 10 years. That doesn't bode well for the colonies being very powerful or highly inhabited.

2. ResourcesThe only exclusive resource mentioned in Sol is Argon gas. In 20+ systems that are mostly vergin territory compared to Sol you can bet you will have a lot more resources than Sol has.[/quote]

More resources yes. Capacity to exploit them? Who knows. Sol has probably been exploiting its planets for upwards of one hundred years. It could have a vast resource gathering capacity far dwarfing the remainder of the Terran systems in the GTVA.

3. Infrastructure
Vasudans, without Vasuda Prime, seem to have a perfectly healthy production infrastructure, since they are replacing all of their destroyers with Hatties. Humans have been recovering slower, but it's a safe bet that they have a good infrastructure as well. After 14 years of war the infrastructure needed to mantain a war machine is surely established on most planets. Hades...Colossuss..and a bunch of new warship classes..I'd say their infrastructure is doing very well.[/quote]

They might be doing well. But so might Sol. And Sol might have had a better starting point. In fact it's canon that Sol was a better starting point.

For generations, Earth had been the political, economic, and cultural center of Terran civilization. Humans still measured time in hours, days, months, and years. They named their ships after the mythological figures of ancient Terran civilizations, and systems were still identified according to the constellations observed from Earth. The planet served as capital of the GTA, and the bulk of the Terran industrial base was located in the Sol system.

Can't believe I missed that last time I looked. I knew there was a reason I thought Sol was the powerhouse of the GTA.

Let's not forget a nice example of the USA who in a very short ammount of time went from a colony to a power that eclipses it's old home (Europe)

Do you mean the 200 years it took from starting colonisation to gaining independence or the 300 odd years till they became a major world power?

4. Military2 races with 20+ star system would definately field a bigger war machine than a single system.. [/quote]

Continents with 50 countries will definitely field a bigger war machine than a single country like Russia. See where I was going with that now?

Besides you're again assuming the Vasudans will get involved in the war. They may not.

Especially after the shivan BBQ demonstration. It wil ltake GTVA 5-10 years to get a Knossos up and running and you cna bet that in that time they WILL beef up their military significantly.

And for all you know Sol will be beefing up their military in preparation for a Shivan invasion too.

5. Going to War
You say that Earth might be so scared of another sihan invasion that they beefed up their defenses. I agree..in fact, hat's what happens in my campaign. However, there are two things to consider:
- the GTVA beefing up theirs as well
- If they did for fear of shivans, you REALLY think that after contact is re-esablished and the GTVA tells them the shivies used 80 ships (that make Lucy look like a whimp) to blow up a star..that after that they will decide to go to war with the GTVA? If anything thy would be evenmore scared and want an union, insted of a war that could only end up badly..and even in the bestest of best scenarios, weaken them considerably.

History is full of examples of powers fighting amongst themselves to ruin of both sides. Occasionally when they were aware of the danger of the 3rd party. How many of the worlds current conflicts happened for completely logical reasons? How many throughout history?

Sure it would be nicer for all concerned if they'd all be friends. Doesn't mean that's what will happen. You could rule out the possibility of the Hades Rebellion happening using similar arguments.

Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the systems/planets had a large degree of autonomy withing the GTA and they have it also with the GTVA now. So I really don' understand what kind of a friction you're reffering to here, since the old way of governing planets would be tthe same as the new.
the only possible friction would be if the Sol government wanted to pull the strings (which is doubtfull, the alliance was formed before the link was severed so the Sol would know how the GTVA works).
Even then, the public support would be vvery questionable.

You're assuming the GTA and the GTVA are the same thing. I'm not assuming that at all. The GTA could easily have been a rigid system run from Earth.

Terran civilization developed to the point of relatively stable nation-states.  With space travel, the nation-state evolved into the global-state and the Terran species furthered its growth, both in material ways and in immaterial, philosophical ways.  In time, the global-state led to the intersystem-state, which in turn led to the Galactic Terran Alliance, a galactic-state.

Make of that what you will.

It's already been stated that after 18 months of fighting in the NTF rebellion that the Alliance was already strained. If Sol was to start a war so soon after the end of the last one there would definitely be calls to not interfere in yet another Terran war. Especially if the Vasudans thought that they could trade with whoever won.

A rebelllion and a war with anohter system are two different things.
Firstly, in a rebellion part of your own forces turn against you. The GTVA lsot 3 systems and a minimum of 3 fleets, if not more, within an instant. Bosch was a excellent strategists who knew how to drag it out, but he knew the NTF was not to last - as he said, it was tool. He didn't expect the rebelion to last himself.

So there is a big difference between fighting a rebelion that eats you up from the inside and turns your own resources against you, and attacking another system with all your forces in tact and under your command.

Did you even read what I wrote or did you just start talking after reading the words NTF rebellion?

I wasn't comparing a rebellion and a war. I was saying that the rebellion strained relations between the two. Even after the Shivans had come back relations were still strained. The Vasudans might not be willing to get involved in another war between humans. Especially as this time round their systems wouldn't be immediately under threat.

[TrashMan]

I was explaining he pointlessness of your GTVA has 20 systems while Sol has 1 nonsense and nothing more. It matters not how many systems the GTVA has. What matters is the combined military might of those systems.

You can't say it doesn't matter. The resources and manpower don't matter? Territory doesn't matter? Size doesn't matter? Since when?

It's not a safe bet in the slightest. If subspace was only discovered 10 years before the start of the TV war it's doubtful that there were anywhere near that number. Capella is also the home of the 3rd fleet. That indicates it's quite a powerful system regardless of its age or distance from Sol. Again I'll point out that Luyten went from uninhabited to regional power in under 10 years. That doesn't bode well for the colonies being very powerful or highly inhabited.

I don't recall any canon year for discovery of subspace. Nor anything of the status of earth or any colonies it might have had using other, more primitive methods.
And actually, what you just pointed out bodes very well indeed. If Capella, who IS really far out and apparently was colonised after the Great War is, as you say, a "powerful system with a fleet" then long-established systems like DS are even moreso.

It would be also nice to compare the speed at which chinas infrastructure is growing and USA one is. When you already have a established infrastructure it grows slowly after that, since all your needs are fulfilled. When you don't, it skyrockets.

More resources yes. Capacity to exploit them? Who knows. Sol has probably been exploiting its planets for upwards of one hundred years. It could have a vast resource gathering capacity far dwarfing the remainder of the Terran systems in the GTVA.

It's not like establishing a mine is a difficult thing. Especially in the future. Mining and refining really shouldn't be a problem for any civilization that can build 2km long warships.

They might be doing well. But so might Sol. And Sol might have had a better starting point. In fact it's canon that Sol was a better starting point.

It does have a better starting point. But in the long run that doesn't mean a thing. Sol's potential is limited compared to what the GTVA can achieve.
Let's not forget that after the node collapse, the GTVA was left with the bulk of the terran fleet.

Do you mean the 200 years it took from starting colonisation to gaining independence or the 300 odd years till they became a major world power?

Apparently, things move a lot faster in the modern age. Look at Germany and how it recovered after 2 wars...or Japan. 40 years is more than enough.

You're assuming the GTA and the GTVA are the same thing. I'm not assuming that at all. The GTA could easily have been a rigid system run from Earth.

Terran civilization developed to the point of relatively stable nation-states.  With space travel, the nation-state evolved into the global-state and the Terran species furthered its growth, both in material ways and in immaterial, philosophical ways.  In time, the global-state led to the intersystem-state, which in turn led to the Galactic Terran Alliance, a galactic-state.

Make of that what you will.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm asking exactly how the GTA was set up.

[karajorma]

You can't say it doesn't matter. The resources and manpower don't matter? Territory doesn't matter? Size doesn't matter? Since when?

They'd all be part of a system's military might. Having lots of ships means bugger all if you can't resupply them or replace them when damaged. But the number of systems as a simple number does not matter in the slightest. Having more systems and more resources means bugger all if they aren't exploited. They weren't 40 years ago. That much is obvious from the quote about Sol having the bulk of the industrial base. They still might not be exploited anywhere near as heavily as the Sol is even now.

The fleet we see in FS1 is the GTA fleet after 14 years of war. It's said several times that the war had economically drained the GTA (the powerhouse of which was in Sol). Since the end of the war Sol could have had 40 years of peace. They might be even stronger than they were back when they were the major power of the GTA.

I don't recall any canon year for discovery of subspace.

Which is why I said IF.

And actually, what you just pointed out bodes very well indeed. If Capella, who IS really far out and apparently was colonised after the Great War is, as you say, a "powerful system with a fleet" then long-established systems like DS are even moreso.

Not when you consider that the GTA suffered an economic collapse after the end of the Great War. Capella could easily be one of the most powerful systems in the GTVA. Again long established systems couldn't compete with completely new ones like Luyten after the Great War.

DS might have picked simply because of it's central location/proximity to Earth. Capitals aren't always the most powerful place in the state after all. DS might simply be the equivalent of Brasilia or Islamabad. It may have been nothing much until it became the Terran Capital. The fact that it wasn't one of the 4 great blocs that eventually formed the Terran part of the GTVA seems to suggest that it wasn't a powerful system.

It's not like establishing a mine is a difficult thing. Especially in the future. Mining and refining really shouldn't be a problem for any civilization that can build 2km long warships.

If it isn't difficult after hundreds of years Sol must have ****loads.

It does have a better starting point. But in the long run that doesn't mean a thing. Sol's potential is limited compared to what the GTVA can achieve.

Potential yes, but it takes time to exploit potential. And you have to have history on your side. Africa has loads of potential but they've done **** all with it.

While eventually the GTVA should be able to outproduce Sol they couldn't at the start of the Great War and they still might not be able to now.

Let's not forget that after the node collapse, the GTVA was left with the bulk of the terran fleet.

They'll have been left with a sizable chunk but the GTA fleet in FS1 never seemed anywhere near as large to me as the GTVA fleet in FS2. And judging from the mothballing of the fleet we see in FS2 I don't think that's really going to help them much. If anything it would have meant that while Sol turned it's attention to building new destroyers the GTVA relaxed because it had the older ones still.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm asking exactly how the GTA was set up.

No idea. Which is what makes it silly to say that certain assumptions about how it is now are valid.

If something can be interpreted two ways and there is no evidence as to which way it actually is I'll keep an open mind. If I have to pick one I'll pick the most likely but in a situation like this I don't have to pick. I can enjoy stories like Inferno which makes the assumptions one way and others like yours which make the assumptions the other way. As long as neither contradict canon and have a solid chain of reasoning for why they feel things are one way I don't see why I should be telling someone that their view of post-Capella events is impossible.

[TrashMan]

They'd all be part of a system's military might. Having lots of ships means bugger all if you can't resupply them or replace them when damaged. But the number of systems as a simple number does not matter in the slightest. Having more systems and more resources means bugger all if they aren't exploited. They weren't 40 years ago. That much is obvious from the quote about Sol having the bulk of the industrial base. They still might not be exploited anywhere near as heavily as the Sol is even now.

The fleet we see in FS1 is the GTA fleet after 14 years of war. It's said several times that the war had economically drained the GTA (the powerhouse of which was in Sol). Since the end of the war Sol could have had 40 years of peace. They might be even stronger than they were back when they were the major power of the GTA.

Judging by the fact that the GTVA seems to be doing pretty well and is expanding, I'd say that the resources are exploited.
After all, how much is " a bulk"?
Even if Earth had 9/10 of the manufacturing infrastructure of the whole GTVA in 40 years you can build MILLIONS of mines,  power plants, rafineries and whatnot.

Sol has had 40 years of peace... but armies are forged in war. Being stronger hardly? If Sol already handled the bulk of the production for the whole GTVA that means that it has more than enough for it's own needs and there is absolutely no need to expand it's infrastructure - the GTVA on the other had has more than enough room and reasons for expansion.

Not when you consider that the GTA suffered an economic collapse after the end of the Great War. Capella could easily be one of the most powerful systems in the GTVA. Again long established systems couldn't compete with completely new ones like Luyten after the Great War.

I don't recall this being canon...

DS might have picked simply because of it's central location/proximity to Earth. Capitals aren't always the most powerful place in the state after all. DS might simply be the equivalent of Brasilia or Islamabad. It may have been nothing much until it became the Terran Capital. The fact that it wasn't one of the 4 great blocs that eventually formed the Terran part of the GTVA seems to suggest that it wasn't a powerful system.

But there were powerful blocks present. There are colonies that are powerful and developed. Heck, the NTF had enough infrastructure to wage war with the GTVA - and they held 3 systems. Now how much infrastructure and logistics would all the GTVA systems have combined then?

Potential yes, but it takes time to exploit potential. And you have to have history on your side. Africa has loads of potential but they've done **** all with it.

I say again...Germany, Japan...from total ruin to powehouses in 40 years. And the GTVA can build things faster with their more advanced tech.

[karajorma]

Sol has had 40 years of peace... but armies are forged in war.

They've had 40 years of peace to build up their army. Armies can be built in peace time too. They simply need a reason for it. Fear of a Shivan invasion is a reason. The GTVA on the other hand lost a lot of ships in the Shivan invasion and the NTF rebellion before it. Maybe that is compensated for in experience or maybe it isn't. Yet another variable you're no doubt going to tell me definitely has to be in your favour.

If Sol already handled the bulk of the production for the whole GTVA that means that it has more than enough for it's own needs and there is absolutely no need to expand it's infrastructure - the GTVA on the other had has more than enough room and reasons for expansion.

Assuming that the reason for expansion is government driven. People didn't move out into the Wild West because the government wanted to. They moved out because they could make vast sums of money doing that even though resources in the East weren't tapped out yet. Don't assume the expansion of the GTVA is because they've exploited everything back home.

If I was told that someone had just discovered a jump node to Dubhe and I could move in and start staking a claim to planets just simply by being the first one to settle there I might be tempted to do so.

Not when you consider that the GTA suffered an economic collapse after the end of the Great War. Capella could easily be one of the most powerful systems in the GTVA. Again long established systems couldn't compete with completely new ones like Luyten after the Great War.

I don't recall this being canon...

An ill-fated coup d'etat, orchestrated by the rogue intelligence branch of the GTA, marked the beginning of post-war factional politics. With its economy in ruins and political structures in turmoil, the Galactic Terran Alliance disintegrated into semi-autonomous regional blocs, each with its own agenda. The major entities included the Adhara Coalition, the Antares Federation, the Regulus Syndicate, and the Luyten New Alliance. As these groups consolidated and stabilized, the reconstruction gained momentum, and the resumption of open commerce rekindled the notion of a pan-Terran community.

Notice that it doesn't mention Delta Serpentis as a major power.

But there were powerful blocks present. There are colonies that are powerful and developed. Heck, the NTF had enough infrastructure to wage war with the GTVA - and they held 3 systems. Now how much infrastructure and logistics would all the GTVA systems have combined then?

That's just as much an argument in my favour. If with 3 systems Bosch can hold off the GTVA's 20 or so there can't be much power in those 20 can there? Remember that if Bosch had been serious about Neo-Terra he might have won (assuming he got his saboteurs to blow up the Colossus rather than just sabotaging its beam cannons). If he can do it with 3 systems why can't Sol do it with one much stronger system?

I say again...Germany, Japan...from total ruin to powehouses in 40 years. And the GTVA can build things faster with their more advanced tech.

Both countries you mention were significantly aided by help from the US. The Terran systems of the GTVA received no such help. They faced economic collapse in fact.

In addition both Japan and Germany were settled already. Luyten had nothing. No people. No ships. No resource exploitation. The fact that it was a major power 10 years later just screams that the other major powers weren't anything special either.

[Colonol Dekker]

At the end of the day 4 armed soldiers could hold a bottleneck against a battalion as long as the ammo held out. But should the offensive push become to great they would be vastly overwhelmed. Thats how i see sol. Just a small force barricaded well. 

[terran_emperor]

Since there is no FS3...there can be no definitive answer...As ive said before, the answer is what you make it....

[eliex]

 Ah, but why can't we speculate our ideas together?

[karajorma]

Nothing wrong with speculation at all. Gets the ideas flowing I say.

[eliex]

 Well said! Exactly my point!!

[Colonol Dekker]

On the note of sol having an exclusive resource, who's to say then that sol residents weren't dependant on an external produce for continued existance that would be a very cool twist. All dead after a year or so. . .

[TrashMan]

Sol has had 40 years of peace... but armies are forged in war.

They've had 40 years of peace to build up their army. Armies can be built in peace time too. They simply need a reason for it. Fear of a Shivan invasion is a reason. The GTVA on the other hand lost a lot of ships in the Shivan invasion and the NTF rebellion before it. Maybe that is compensated for in experience or maybe it isn't. Yet another variable you're no doubt going to tell me definitely has to be in your favour.

EXPERIENCED army...you can build all the guns you want but  the army that had REAL war experience will simply be better. No training can replace that..adn the GTVA seems to be constantly fighting someone. Not to say that Sol doesn't have some internal enemy..but nothing like the shivies.

Assuming that the reason for expansion is government driven. People didn't move out into the Wild West because the government wanted to. They moved out because they could make vast sums of money doing that even though resources in the East weren't tapped out yet. Don't assume the expansion of the GTVA is because they've exploited everything back home.

You don't understand. If you already have more infrastrucutre than you need for all your production needs, you won't be new ones just for kicks. There is no need for it.

An ill-fated coup d'etat, orchestrated by the rogue intelligence branch of the GTA, marked the beginning of post-war factional politics. With its economy in ruins and political structures in turmoil, the Galactic Terran Alliance disintegrated into semi-autonomous regional blocs, each with its own agenda. The major entities included the Adhara Coalition, the Antares Federation, the Regulus Syndicate, and the Luyten New Alliance. As these groups consolidated and stabilized, the reconstruction gained momentum, and the resumption of open commerce rekindled the notion of a pan-Terran community.

Notice that it doesn't mention Delta Serpentis as a major power.

And what this have to do with new colonies being better off then older, established ones? Thats the statement I was questioning, not the collapse into 4 blocks.

That's just as much an argument in my favour. If with 3 systems Bosch can hold off the GTVA's 20 or so there can't be much power in those 20 can there? Remember that if Bosch had been serious about Neo-Terra he might have won (assuming he got his saboteurs to blow up the Colossus rather than just sabotaging its beam cannons). If he can do it with 3 systems why can't Sol do it with one much stronger system?

Not a fair comparison. Those 3 systems were apparently nicely developed and they switched sides...along with a fair number of GTVA ships..in the initial rebellion, a lot of GTVA officers and ships were backstabed and destroyed.
Also the damage was double - the resources and ship become the enemies ships and resources. That's also the reason why it was so effective. And NTF winning? Best it could hope for was a stalemate - but the NTF could never take on the GTVA.

Both countries you mention were significantly aided by help from the US. The Terran systems of the GTVA received no such help. They faced economic collapse in fact.

In addition both Japan and Germany were settled already. Luyten had nothing. No people. No ships. No resource exploitation. The fact that it was a major power 10 years later just screams that the other major powers weren't anything special either.

Economic collapse always happens immediately after the war. Germany and Japan faced it too. they didn't spring back 1-2 years after the war. It took more.
And what you said doesn't scream anything. Lutyen was the leader of a block, but that doesn't mean it's economicly or industrially powerful - but rather politicly.
The capitol often isn't the biggest and most powerfull, remeber?

[karajorma]

You don't understand. If you already have more infrastrucutre than you need for all your production needs, you won't be new ones just for kicks. There is no need for it.

So if the East side of America had gold no one would have bothered moving to the west to look for gold. They'd just say "Well lots of people are getting rich in the East I'm not one of them but there's no point in me moving west"

Never mind that there would be more gold in the west and less people to take it.

Expansion doesn't happen simply because everything is already exploited. Thanks to subspace it's not that much more trouble to mine a metal rich asteroid two jumps away compared with an average one in this system.

And what this have to do with new colonies being better off then older, established ones? Thats the statement I was questioning, not the collapse into 4 blocks.

As I pointed out Delta Serpentis wasn't one of the blocs. Luyten is the centre of a major power. Not DS. Adhara is also likely a new system too for that matter IIRC.

Not a fair comparison. Those 3 systems were apparently nicely developed and they switched sides...along with a fair number of GTVA ships..in the initial rebellion, a lot of GTVA officers and ships were backstabed and destroyed.
Also the damage was double - the resources and ship become the enemies ships and resources. That's also the reason why it was so effective. And NTF winning? Best it could hope for was a stalemate - but the NTF could never take on the GTVA.

The NTF's goal was independence. A stalemate is a victory for them. (Don't even ****ing start that it wasn't. That's what they thought they were fighting for even if Bosch had other ideas).

As for it not being fair, Sol is already held by their forces. They too were nicely developed and unlike the NTF who have to fight a war on two or three fronts there is only one way into Sol.

Economic collapse always happens immediately after the war. Germany and Japan faced it too. they didn't spring back 1-2 years after the war. It took more.

Who are you telling this to? You're the one who was arguing in favour of quick recovery for the GTVA systems. So if even with outside help Germany and Japan faced economic collapse according to your own arguments and took time to recover then that makes it even more unlikely that the GTA systems recovered quite as quickly as you claim.

And what you said doesn't scream anything. Lutyen was the leader of a block, but that doesn't mean it's economicly or industrially powerful - but rather politicly.
The capitol often isn't the biggest and most powerfull, remeber?

Fine but there is usually a good reason why you do that. Delta Serpentis has historical reasons for picking it as well as being close to Beta Aquilae which is the GTVA headquarters.

Which other systems were in the Luyten New Alliance? Wolf 359 and Barnard's were discovered even later and as such are unlikely to be any more powerful. Laramis wasn't explored at the start of the Great War either.  You have to go to Ross 128 and Delta Serpentis itself before you find systems which were even inhabited during the Great War and then the question becomes "Why build your new capital out in the middle of nowhere?"

[eliex]

 The only reason for expansion for people is because there is actually something out there for a living - or should I say to live on.

[TrashMan]

So if the East side of America had gold no one would have bothered moving to the west to look for gold. They'd just say "Well lots of people are getting rich in the East I'm not one of them but there's no point in me moving west"

Never mind that there would be more gold in the west and less people to take it.

Expansion doesn't happen simply because everything is already exploited. Thanks to subspace it's not that much more trouble to mine a metal rich asteroid two jumps away compared with an average one in this system.

If you already happen to have more than enough gold mines, oil rigs, and mines and factories of all types you won't be building new ones. There has to be a NEED for something. Otherwise it's not really profitable.
And it's a safe bet ractors and jump drives are the most expensive things on a fighter/freighter. Mining on a planet, like Earth, is surely cheaper than from asteroids. You won't do it unless you realyl need those resources or the resources are unique.

Who are you telling this to? You're the one who was arguing in favour of quick recovery for the GTVA systems. So if even with outside help Germany and Japan faced economic collapse according to your own arguments and took time to recover then that makes it even more unlikely that the GTA systems recovered quite as quickly as you claim.

Do you have trouble reading? I said that a quick recovery is possible, but it doesn't happen in 2 years.. the first few years are allways troublesome..so speaking of a economic collapse of the GTA - it's nothing uncommon, and it hasn't been stated how long it lasted or anything.

Which other systems were in the Luyten New Alliance? Wolf 359 and Barnard's were discovered even later and as such are unlikely to be any more powerful. Laramis wasn't explored at the start of the Great War either.  You have to go to Ross 128 and Delta Serpentis itself before you find systems which were even inhabited during the Great War and then the question becomes "Why build your new capital out in the middle of nowhere?"

Even 4 of the smallest and most pitifull states on Earth can form a block. Does that mean they are powerfull? All we know is that 4 regional blocks were formed. We have NO IDEA how powerfull they were - neither industrialy, military or politicly.


Oh - as I said before, a rebellion and a war can't be compared in therms of military might. +4 systems and +4 fleet for the rebelion means -4 systems and -4 fleets for the GTVA. And don't forget the turncoats, saboteurs and surprise attack that weakened the GTVA quite extensivly at the begining of the rebelion.

Sol would have no such luck.

[Colonol Dekker]

Experience vs numbers and tech. Vietnam anyone?