[Flipside]

Once again, we move into the realm of supposition, there no reason that something cannot grow extremely quickly, bamboo can, in wet weather, grow at an astonishing rate, you can literally hear them growing, something the mass of the Sathanas could be, as long as materials were available, grown in considerably less than the time if took to build the Colossus. Yes, it takes an Elephant about 30 years to reach full size, but that's because it has a great deal more to do than simply 'grow', that increase in size, just like in humans, is a 'triggered' event that is bought about by a bunch of hormones going 'ok, now you can get big enough to choose whether to challenge the herd-leader', remove that trigger and you'd get 6-ft 3-year olds, you can see something similar in things like CPP Syndrome which pushes a child into puberty extremely early, or Robert Wadlow who had a problem with his pituary gland and grew to well over 8ft Tall by his early 20's iirc.

And remember that biological growth is exponential in nature, not linear.

[terran_emperor]

Accelarated growth. Any species capable of producing the shivan's scale of numbers would also have the technology to accelarate the growth of their vessels when necessary. I like i said, if their was urgent need for a particular class, ie a fllet of cains, then they would accelarate thier growth so that they have the number of cains they need. This would possibly come at the cost of the ship's lifetime - the force grown ships would only live a for decades, while the ones that grow naturally would last centuaries

[Flipside]

I'm not even certain they would be 'alive' in the normal sense of the words, they would be more like a plant than an animal, and plants, in ideal conditions can live to be extremely old indeed. Now, take a 'plant' that is engineered to grow into a specific shape, genetically coded, with an external technology to ensure that mutation doesn't compromise the design, not too difficult if you are capable of designing a genetic structure from the roots upwards, as it were.

The 'seed' itself takes care of controlling all the functions to grow the ship, you only have to supply materials, it's an enormous initial expense to create the genetics, but once you have the 'code' for creating the seed, it's a massive saving on building understructures. Once the structure has grown, then further technology is connected to the structure, such as armour etc, or possibly even grown there as an exoskeleton similar in fashion to the suits that Shivans wear, only more rigid. The ships are still piloted, they are not sentient, they have no nerves, so they can't feel pain or react in any manner they are not instructed to, they are still machines, but biologically created ones, not manufactured.

The advantages are actually multiple, which is why modern science is trying so hard to do this kind of stuff, as long as you have the material, you need minimal building facilities, which is handy for frontline deployment, ships would be unlikely to be self-healing as such, but certainly, once out of the battles, genetic coding could make repairing them a lot simpler than having to dry-dock the ship etc.

Edit: I'm not saying this is how they were made, I'm saying if they were biological, this is how I think it would work. I could even go on to suggest that those 'Comm Nodes' were ship seeds that were receiving/relaying construction data from somewhere, after all, it's entirely a hypothetical conversation in the first place.

[Woolie Wool]

Accelarated growth. Any species capable of producing the shivan's scale of numbers would also have the technology to accelarate the growth of their vessels when necessary. I like i said, if their was urgent need for a particular class, ie a fllet of cains, then they would accelarate thier growth so that they have the number of cains they need. This would possibly come at the cost of the ship's lifetime - the force grown ships would only live a for decades, while the ones that grow naturally would last centuaries

You did not answer my question. I asked you how this could work. You respond by saying it could work. Circular logic.

Once again, we move into the realm of supposition, there no reason that something cannot grow extremely quickly, bamboo can, in wet weather, grow at an astonishing rate, you can literally hear them growing, something the mass of the Sathanas could be, as long as materials were available, grown in considerably less than the time if took to build the Colossus. Yes, it takes an Elephant about 30 years to reach full size, but that's because it has a great deal more to do than simply 'grow', that increase in size, just like in humans, is a 'triggered' event that is bought about by a bunch of hormones going 'ok, now you can get big enough to choose whether to challenge the herd-leader', remove that trigger and you'd get 6-ft 3-year olds, you can see something similar in things like CPP Syndrome which pushes a child into puberty extremely early, or Robert Wadlow who had a problem with his pituary gland and grew to well over 8ft Tall by his early 20's iirc.

And remember that biological growth is exponential in nature, not linear.

Even if you grant that point, which I still don't as bamboo is far less complex than an elephant, much less an SJ Sathanas--it is essentially a hollow cylinder of microscopic "pipes" and porous materials, this doesn't remove the fact that biological growth is horrendously inefficient for multicelled organisms with all the cellular growth, death, and differentiation. It is far more efficient to manufacture the components outright with the minimum of parts.

[terran_emperor]

Exposed to certain chemicals In a vat? In a chamber where it's subjucted to some type of radiation?
i dont know how accelarated growth tech works. Because we havent developed it yet.

[Gamma_Draconis]

This is speculation on technology in a fictional universe. Anything is possible if it fits with the general theme. I for one, agree that Shivan ships could be built with organic parts. It's a cool concept and sounds pretty neat. It can also explain how the Shivans can produce such large number of ships and the general "insect" look that Shivans have.

[Aardwolf]

*is willing to entertain this idea*

Biological means alive, organic means made of carbon (and I think hydrogen may also be a requirement).

Still, the ships could be grown out of a single genetic code. Think of it this way: all ants in a colony have the same DNA (mostly), but different ones are exposed to different pheromones and become different types of ant. Also, the Drosophila melanogaster fruit fly's body grows into its complicated shape using only two starting chemicals (one at each end of the body) to activate and deactivate certain genes at different locations and times, based on the spreading rate of those chemicals. So a very complicated form can be produced by one genetic code and two chemicals (on a small scale). It wouldn't take too much to make an even more complicated thing (a starship), given a few more chemicals, and maybe some artificial chemical emitters.

Lastly, suppose these biological components are designed to undergo some sort of controlled apoptosis (cell death), and have their organic components be swapped out with metallic ones (sort of like petrification/fossilization)... the ships could be grown, and then be hardened. The exact way to do this is not something I could tell you, but I imagine it would certainly be possible.

Edit: even so, being biological or organic has nothing to do with looking like an insect, or looking like any living thing known to man.

[Woolie Wool]

Exposed to certain chemicals In a vat? In a chamber where it's subjucted to some type of radiation?
i dont know how accelarated growth tech works. Because we havent developed it yet.

Concession accepted.

[Woolie Wool]

*is willing to entertain this idea*

Biological mean alive, organic means made of carbon (and I think hydrogen may also be a requirement).

Still, the ships could be grown out of a single genetic code. Think of it this way: all ants in a colony have the same DNA (mostly), but different ones are exposed to different pheromones and become different types of ant. Also, the Drosophila melanogaster fruit fly's body grows into its complicated shape using only two starting chemicals (one at each end of the body) to activate and deactivate certain genes at different locations and times, based on the spreading rate of those chemicals. So a very complicated form can be produced by one genetic code and two chemicals (on a small scale). It wouldn't take too much to make an even more complicated thing (a starship), given a few more chemicals, and maybe some artificial chemical emitters.

Lastly, suppose these biological components are designed to undergo some sort of controlled apoptosis (cell death), and have their organic components be swapped out with metallic ones (sort of like petrification/fossilization)... the ships could be grown, and then be hardened. The exact way to do this is not something I could tell you, but I imagine it would certainly be possible.

Edit: even so, being biological or organic has nothing to do with looking like an insect, or looking like any living thing known to man.

Yes, but differentiation and apoptosis mean that vast numbers of cells must be wasted, which gives it yet another disadvantage to manufacturing processes where nearly all the raw materials can end up in the finished product.

[Aardwolf]

I was using apoptosis with a special, added meaning... that, the cells don't just die, they are hardened with metal alloys. A few cells could remain through most of the hardening process to ensure the free tranport of the metal into the areas that have not yet hardened. It could even be that the carbon-based organic material is converted somehow into nanofibers to reinforce the hull/armor/etc., or that it is drained out of the ship as the metals are being pumped in (I realize those words imply it is a rather fast process, I meant slowly, maybe over months even), and the cells revert to their unspecialized forms for use in other ship constructions.

And I don't see how differentiation requires that cells be wasted, even if it weren't possible to revert them back to the 'stem cell' type.

[NGTM-1R]

Even if you grant that point, which I still don't as bamboo is far less complex than an elephant, much less an SJ Sathanas--it is essentially a hollow cylinder of microscopic "pipes" and porous materials, this doesn't remove the fact that biological growth is horrendously inefficient for multicelled organisms with all the cellular growth, death, and differentiation. It is far more efficient to manufacture the components outright with the minimum of parts.

The thing is, you're assuming things that don't need to be true. They don't have to grow the ship of whole cloth. In fact, it makes a great deal of sense not to. Seperate subsystems as seperate organisms, probably broken down yet further to allow it to better resist damage and failure (death).

However in another sense I think everyone is looking at this in the wrong fashion. The analogy of coral would work well. The ships are still built; they are not alive themselves. The manufacturing process, however, was biological rather than mechanical.

[Aardwolf]

An interesting (but borderline off-topic) thing to note is that plants (but not animals) actually reduce the local entropy (by pushing it elsewhere, no doubt)... that is, they can get more useful energy than animals. The processes they use do not let energy go to unusable forms as rapidly as the processes that keep animal life alive.

Also, did I mention Carbon Nanofibers?

Edit: and furthermore, all of these Shivan theories assume they can build single ships rapidly. That's not necessary. In fact, they had 32 years (depending on how long it took to reach Terran space, of course) to rebuild. They didn't need fast construction, just lots of material and "labor" to do it.

[Asuko]

I all of a sudden love where this discussion is heading.

Also, apoptosis does not necessarily mean the raw materials used to make the (now dead) cells are wholly wasted. It can be broken down and reused.

I like the concept of the epidermal layer of the ships hardening into the armor that makes them into the metal plating. I suppose a carbon nanofiber weave would strengthen it from regular wear and tear from, say, Subspace.

[blowfish]

Edit: and furthermore, all of these Shivan theories assume they can build single ships rapidly. That's not necessary. In fact, they had 32 years (depending on how long it took to reach Terran space, of course) to rebuild. They didn't need fast construction, just lots of material and "labor" to do it.

32 years ... or even longer.  How do we know if it was the same group of Shivans that attacked us in the Great War.  The ships we saw in FS2 could have been in development for a very long time.  (I don't want to start an argument about Shivan theories and such, I just wanted to put this out as a possibility).

[terran_emperor]

As far as im concerned, the Shivans in FS1 & 2 were 2 different groups

[Asuko]

Shivans from an alternate universe probably? I've got Sync on my mind lately.

[terran_emperor]

What i Mean is in the Shivan Fleet layout, the Lucifer fleet was the 49th Mobile Fleet - A fleet that moves as a whole...although, it could just have been a Battle Division  of that fleet 

The FS2 Fleet would be something like the 101th Juggernaught Brigade + support fleet (all the other ships)

And each of them are acting autonomously

[Flipside]

As was mentioned earlier, Apoptosis is a 'keyed' event, like puberty, only at a much lower level, there are a few ways of dealing with this and a few reasons why it may not even be neccessary.

As Ngtm1r mentioned, calcification and other techniques could be one answer, like coral, the main physical structure of the ship could be equivalent to a 'shell', with various production units around the ships, the genetic material could travel via capillary action through that shell. As far as rounded is concerned, once again, that a question not so much about cell death as the fact that a sphere has the largest possible volume in the smallest possible area, it's efficient, so nature uses it, however, it is still coded in to be that way and can be altered. and since blebbing and other membrane deformations only take place after the onset of Apoptosis, if it doesn't happen, then the membrane will not deform.

[Woolie Wool]

Even if you grant that point, which I still don't as bamboo is far less complex than an elephant, much less an SJ Sathanas--it is essentially a hollow cylinder of microscopic "pipes" and porous materials, this doesn't remove the fact that biological growth is horrendously inefficient for multicelled organisms with all the cellular growth, death, and differentiation. It is far more efficient to manufacture the components outright with the minimum of parts.

The thing is, you're assuming things that don't need to be true. They don't have to grow the ship of whole cloth. In fact, it makes a great deal of sense not to. Seperate subsystems as seperate organisms, probably broken down yet further to allow it to better resist damage and failure (death).

However in another sense I think everyone is looking at this in the wrong fashion. The analogy of coral would work well. The ships are still built; they are not alive themselves. The manufacturing process, however, was biological rather than mechanical.

Coral grows so incredibly slowly that even kicking it with a diving fin inflicts damage that can take the coral decades to repair.

[Flipside]

Yes Coral grows slowly using photosynthesis from just beneath the waterline. just because it uses the same technique doesn't mean it has to grow at the same speed, it's in an entirely different environment and isn't using any kind of engineered techniques, it was one of the first organism to appear on the planet.

Now, I'll be honest, this is turning into nit-picking now, I've defended this concept with reasonable and appropriate answers and it's just getting to the point where everything I compare the growth to you take as a literal transfer of every function of that organism. Three pages is enough I think.