Author Topic: Hosting Policy  (Read 45943 times)

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I'm sick of the *****ing you people are giving the rules have been laid out and you've been given the reason. They know what they were doing when they posted the 20 mission limit and a reason was given. If you don't like it you can always host it somewhere else.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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We strongly prefer people to join existing projects rather than create new ones, but if you feel equally strongly about starting your own project, here are the requirements for applying for project hosting:

You will be invited to note bitter irony with me as we go along...

1) You must demonstrate significant progress on your project.  Examples of significant progress would be a modeldump or demo release, or evidence of strong and detailed internal project organization.

Perfectly reasonable...and poorly adhered to, honestly, but oh well.

2) You must have a website.  It doesn't have to be very big, or very complex, but it has to exist.  And it has to be halfway decent, not something you threw together in five minutes.  You can put a temporary site up on GeoCities or Angelfire prior to moving it to HLP.

I'm tempted to say "**** you too." because I don't build websites, I build goddamn campaigns, and this is one that's been violated before. (Try the Halo for FS site kiddos.) In fact, I'd even point out this is detrimental to your arguments as you have posted numerous campaign examples as good ones that don't have a website anybody saw fit to tell me about.

3) You must have a campaign outline.  (You don't have to release it publically, just show it to the person evaluating your hosting request.)  It can be detailed or vague, but it has to lay out a plan of attack.  This ensures that projects will make progress and will not wander aimlessly for years before settling down with a design.

Also perfectly reasonable. Now if only most projects would keep their stuff in this category up to date.

4) We will not approve new hosting requests from any projects with campaigns longer than 20 missions.  History has shown that the failure rate for such campaigns has been very, very high, probably upwards of ninety percent.  Of those campaigns that do eventually release something, most languish for years, often going through one or more dormant stages before finishing.

This is, on the surface, a reasonable request, yet it ignores the episodic content thing discussed earlier in this thread; I'd like to hear an opinion on that.  However I also think it's a damn shame.

There's also that matter that AFAIK most of the projects on these forums are not being held up by a lack of FREDders. Getting people to do missions is easier than it ever has been before. Now if somebody wants to be an elitest ass and say nobody else can work on their campaign, that's their problem and you can boot them in the head all you like. But completing a 20+ mission campaign is more feasible now then it ever has been before, so it seems short-sighted to ban them.

And I suppose I need to go out and indict the whole damn community, myself included, while I'm here.

Somebody once said that the difference between Blaise Russel and the rest of us was that he would actually get off his ass and FRED.

That's absolutely true.

The rest of us are out here insistant on either slacking or whining about models, cutscenes, tech anis, voiceacting, or **** knows what. How many campaigns on this forum are currently held up on this kind of thing? I would guess most. I know for sure of several. Think of all the campaigns like Homesick we could have made in the amount of time we've wasted on bells and whistles. If you're actually sitting there and working at it, not alt-tabbing out to do other crap, a mission shouldn't really take more than six hours of actual work. At one hour a day it is totally within the realm of possiblity to finish a 20-mission campaign inside of a month and actually have it be decent. Not great, but decent. I know for a fact I managed to build a 5-mission campaign in less then a week (Operation Savior) and most of that time ended up being used up in consulting the community on FRED issues. It probably would have originally met the target of being built within a 24-hour period but for FRED.

20 missions and epic story is not the problem. 20 missions, a new fleet, voiceacting, cutscenes, tech anis, and CB anis. That is the problem. And you've failed to acknowledge it. You're confusing number of missions with scope of the project.

The object of this policy is not to discourage projects per se, but to ensure that the energy expended on projects is profitable and productive.  There's nothing worse than pouring months and months of effort into a bloated albatross only to have it die off or be abandoned.  Smaller campaigns of 5 to 10 missions have a much higher chance of succeeding.

Difficult to object here, but then again, see above.

It is also worth noting that FreeSpace has been out for a long time.  If you have an idea for a fantastic new campaign of epic proportions, chances are pretty good that someone, or several someones, has already thought of it.  In this situation, you're much better off finding an existing campaign similar to your own and joining that instead.

Except, they probably died along the way. Except, you even point out that they probably died along the way. Except, sorry, but not all stories have yet been thought of here.

I think I've been around long enough to say reasonably safely it's not hard to think of a new idea nobody's ever made a campaign out of. Hell I have a stack of them, most of which bear very little resemblence to the concepts of other campaigns I've seen, and not all of which I'm likely to use. And dear god, we haven't even started with the different presentation of old ideas yet, or the general improvement upon. This point is pure talking out of your ass, Goob. I'm sorry to put it that way, but not as sorry as I am to hear you say it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 01:04:03 am by ngtm1r »
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Online Goober5000

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I'm faintly amazed at the level of childishness on display in this thread.  Do you guys simply enjoy complaining for the sake of complaining?  I thought I could put a stop to it by laying the smackdown on blowfish; I now apologize for singling him out, as it clearly did little to establish precedent for everybody else.

Now look.  You need to realize that letting projects run wild with no focus, no direction, no strategy, and no definition of success is very bad management practice.  (Go look at the Iraq War for a real-life illustration.)  What we're trying to do here is harness the creative efforts of members and channel them into productive projects.  Not throw them away on vague albatrosses that will cause burnouts five years down the road.  If the project is destined to die or fade away anyway, then it's better to save those five years and use them on something more profitable.  (Look up pruning for another real-life illustration.)

Now that that's out of the way, let me address the mosquito posts with a well-dispersed shotgun blast:

1) We are not going to remove projects from the Hosted list simply because they're old.  They're still hosted, aren't they?  Have some respect for your elders -- both the campaigns and the people.

2) Releasing campaigns in chapters, while a good solution in theory, adds too much risk in my opinion.  It's far too easy for somebody to disguise an albatross as a chapter'ed campaign, and then we end up with the very same problems we had before.  Sequels, however, don't fall under this category.

3) The reason I posted the policy is because I found it in the admin forum and realized it had never been announced.  And the reason it was in the admin forum is because it was composed after we hosted Procyon Insurgency and Halo for FreeSpace, and we figured we should have something official written down.

4) I don't think cinematic missions should count toward the 20.  We wouldn't count cutscenes, after all.

5) For those not familiar with the short campaigns I listed, I highly recommend you go check them out, as they're well worth playing.  That's not an exhaustive list, either... there are a bunch more short campaigns I didn't list.

6) If you don't like the hosting policy, there's nothing forcing you to host it here.  Go apply at Game-Warden or SectorGame.

7) It's worth keeping in mind exactly what hosting means.  It means you have a website and, optionally, a development forum.  So obviously, if you want presence on the web then we would really like you to know how to design a website.  We aren't going to do it for you.

8) As a corollary to #7, if all you want to do is post a campaign and you don't need or want a website or forum, then you don't need "hosting" and this policy doesn't apply to you.  Just go ahead and release your project in the Missions and Campaigns forum.  (Most of the short campaigns I listed were released this way.)

9) I'm going to clarify that this policy only applies to campaigns in development.  If you came along with a finished campaign, most of the rules wouldn't apply to you and the rest wouldn't make sense.  If we denied your hosting application, it would be for an unrelated reason like lack of space or bandwidth, neither of which look like they'd be a problem for the foreseeable future.

10) I actually do think projects are held up by a lack of FREDders, for the simple reason that FREDders are in short supply on HLP.  Look at the frequency of posts in General FreeSpace (plot, writing, and commentary) and FreeSpace Modding (models) compared FRED Discussion.  Also, note that, by definition, mission design is the one and only prerequisite to a campaign release.  Everything else, from cutscenes to new mods to new graphical effects, is just polish.

11) If completing a 20+ mission campaign is easier now than ever before, where are all the 20+ mission campaigns?  We have plenty of examples of HTL models, rendered cutscenes, bumpmapped textures, and other such excellence in many other areas of expertise.

12) Agreed regarding the fact that people try to be too epic for their own good.  However, I still think number of missions is a good metric, as the scope of the project seems to scale linearly with the size of the campaign.

13) Nearly all the campaigns here fall into one or more of several well-trodden categories.  Terrans fight against Terrans; Terrans fight against Vasudans.  Vasudans fight against Terrans; Vasudans fight against Vasudans.  Terrans and Vasudans fight against Shivans, either together or separately, and sometimes in parallel with one of the first four.  Some faction discovers a technology or secret that they shouldn't have, or that somebody else wants.  A charismatic leader is causing trouble and must be captured/defended.  Etc.  To pick on CP5670, Procyon Insurgency was basically Silent Threat with cooler missions and with plot elements swapped around.

14) Less posting, more development would be beneficial for us all.

Okay, so this was a long post, and I don't want my bullet points to take away from the first two paragraphs.  Let me close with two good quotes that are applicable here:

Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. (Einstein)
A designer knows he has achieved perfections not when there is nothing to add, but when there is nothing left to take away (Saint-Exupery)

 

Offline Fury

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So, a 50 missions long campaign is easy enough to get hosted (provided you have a decent writeup finished) by dumping the last 30 missions into a sequel campaign. After completing the 20 missions long first campaign, you still have your project hosted and can continue on with the remaining 30 missions. You just need to choose your words carefully when presenting your hosting request.

 
Isn't that what Inferno does?

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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I'm faintly amazed at the level of childishness on display in this thread.  Do you guys simply enjoy complaining for the sake of complaining?  I thought I could put a stop to it by laying the smackdown on blowfish; I now apologize for singling him out, as it clearly did little to establish precedent for everybody else.

I'm faintly amazed at lumping everyone into a catchall belittling category like that. I apologize if my use of adult language somehow made my post seem more childish. (Paradox...) I do not apologize for pointing out that the arbitrary limits you wish to impose on the degree of work to be done have massive loopholes and these need to be closed.

If you want us to act like adults, then let's have a bit less of the "do as I say, not as I do." Opposition to this is not all poorly founded, Goober, and your complaining that you did something you must have known would be controversial and it generated controversy is...well, surely you must have known this would happen. If you didn't want to deal with it that much then you should have stayed quiet or not done it in the first place. That you resorted to calling us all childish instead is probably the most childish thing anyone in this thread has yet done.

4) I don't think cinematic missions should count toward the 20.  We wouldn't count cutscenes, after all.

I've said it before, but you didn't seem to hear me, so I'll say it again. You probably should count cutscenes, or at least rendered cutscenes, because those take a lot longer to get out the door than a mission usually. If you're going to impose an arbitrary limit on the amount of work that is in these campaigns then you really should think such a thing through. And that cutscene mission thing is going to come back to bite you sometime. Perhaps a cap of 5 cutscene missions and 20 campaign ones?

10) I actually do think projects are held up by a lack of FREDders, for the simple reason that FREDders are in short supply on HLP.  Look at the frequency of posts in General FreeSpace (plot, writing, and commentary) and FreeSpace Modding (models) compared FRED Discussion.  Also, note that, by definition, mission design is the one and only prerequisite to a campaign release.  Everything else, from cutscenes to new mods to new graphical effects, is just polish.

Which is why ST:R and BWO aren't out the door...?

You're dodging the point. Mission design has always been the only prerequisite, yet you can do a lot more than mission design to make yourself have problems getting a campaign done.  If somebody comes in here with 20 missions and a rendered cutscene for each then odds are pretty good they're going to fail, aren't they? You're trying to impose an arbitrary limit on one aspect of the work involved in creating a campaign and refusing to make sense regarding any other particular aspect. Now, I'll grant that the 20 mission cap puts a damper on anyone really showing off an all-new fleet or the like and that might discourge them, but there's no accounting for people. (Or maybe it doesn't, since you listed INFR1.)

13) Nearly all the campaigns here fall into one or more of several well-trodden categories.  Terrans fight against Terrans; Terrans fight against Vasudans.  Vasudans fight against Terrans; Vasudans fight against Vasudans.  Terrans and Vasudans fight against Shivans, either together or separately, and sometimes in parallel with one of the first four.  Some faction discovers a technology or secret that they shouldn't have, or that somebody else wants.  A charismatic leader is causing trouble and must be captured/defended.  Etc.  To pick on CP5670, Procyon Insurgency was basically Silent Threat with cooler missions and with plot elements swapped around.

And if you really want to oversimplify like that then you have bigger problems then just not being able to parse that campaigns are more than just building the missions usually when they fail. Which Terrans/Vasudans/Shivans and why? We haven't even scratched the surface of all those. Somebody once asked for a pirate campaign in Campaigns discussion. Only one released example could be provided. There are no active Shivan POV campaigns at this time. The list goes on. We've seen Terran campaigns from the points of view of line squadrons and specops people and God knows what, but there are yet viewpoints unexplored. (So what was Han-Ronald corporate security doing during Capella?) There are methods of presentation, too. Missions alternating in viewpoint between opposing sides, or parallel views of the same events (generally or specifically) either in the same fashion or as two seperate yet connected campaigns.

And that's what I can list off the top of my head. I haven't even touched things like the rebuild of Derelict.

14) Less posting, more development would be beneficial for us all.

Two hours a day in FRED. Next point please.

Okay, so this was a long post, and I don't want my bullet points to take away from the first two paragraphs.  Let me close with two good quotes that are applicable here:

Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. (Einstein)
A designer knows he has achieved perfections not when there is nothing to add, but when there is nothing left to take away (Saint-Exupery)

Irony demands I point out that I have taken the second quote's stance and you have decided I am not correct.
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Offline jdjtcagle

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It really doesn't have to be this way, people.  It's more like having a problem with authority other than a problem with a policy, which is, in the best interest of them rather than you.  BTW, it's pretty nice of them to even offer hosting.
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Offline Jeff Vader

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BTW, it's pretty nice of them to even offer hosting.
Indeed. If you don't like it, host it elsewhere. I admit to have difficulties understanding why people are raising a hell about this. Their space, their bandwidth, their rules.
23:40 < achillion > EveningTea: ass
23:40 < achillion > wait no
23:40 < achillion > evilbagel: ass
23:40 < EveningTea > ?
23:40 < achillion > 2-letter tab complete failure

14:08 < achillion > there's too much talk of butts and dongs in here
14:08 < achillion > the level of discourse has really plummeted
14:08 < achillion > Let's talk about politics instead
14:08 <@The_E > butts and dongs are part of #hard-light's brand now
14:08 <@The_E > well
14:08 <@The_E > EvilBagel's brand, at least

01:06 < T-Rog > welp
01:07 < T-Rog > I've got to take some very strong antibiotics
01:07 < achillion > penis infection?
01:08 < T-Rog > Chlamydia
01:08 < achillion > O.o
01:09 < achillion > well
01:09 < achillion > I guess that happens
01:09 < T-Rog > at least it's curable
01:09 < achillion > yeah
01:10 < T-Rog > I take it you weren't actually expecting it to be a penis infection
01:10 < achillion > I was not

14:04 < achillion > Sometimes the way to simplify is to just have a habit and not think about it too much
14:05 < achillion > until stuff explodes
14:05 < achillion > then you start thinking about it

22:16 < T-Rog > I don't know how my gf would feel about Jewish conspiracy porn

15:41 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
15:47 < EvilBagel> butt
15:51 < Achillion> yes
15:53 <-INFO > EveningTea [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]

18:53 < Achillion> Dicks are fun

21:41 < MatthTheGeek> you can't spell assassin without two asses

20:05 < sigtau> i'm mining titcoins from now on

00:31 < oldlaptop> Drunken antisocial educated freezing hicks with good Internet == Finland stereotype

11:46 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has joined #hard-light
11:50 < achtung> Surely you've heard of DVDA
11:50 < achtung> Double Vaginal Double ANal
11:51 < Kobrar> ...
11:51 <-INFO > Kobrar [[email protected]] has left #hard-light []

 

Offline castor

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4) I don't think cinematic missions should count toward the 20.  We wouldn't count cutscenes, after all.
I've said it before, but you didn't seem to hear me, so I'll say it again. You probably should count cutscenes, or at least rendered cutscenes, because those take a lot longer to get out the door than a mission usually. If you're going to impose an arbitrary limit on the amount of work that is in these campaigns then you really should think such a thing through. And that cutscene mission thing is going to come back to bite you sometime. Perhaps a cap of 5 cutscene missions and 20 campaign ones?
On the other hand, when only the cinematics are incomplete, its unlikely to postpone an otherwise completed campaign forever..
But this should be specified carefully, so that we don't end up limiting also the style of campaigns in addition to their size.

 

Offline Mobius

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I don't think hosting projects here on HLP is the problem.

To me, this Announcement sounds like a way to tell forumites to stop coming out with (ambitious)project ideas and join existing projects instead to make them run faster...that's why I find it a bit harsh.


On the other hand, when only the cinematics are incomplete, its unlikely to postpone an otherwise completed campaign forever..
But this should be specified carefully, so that we don't end up limiting also the style of campaigns in addition to their size.

6-7 Steadfast missions are the equivalent of 20 normal missions. Yeah, the style tells a lot.

 

Offline IPAndrews

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Ok since everyone is having their £2 worth. I like Goober's new hosting policy. It's his decision to make and I happen to agree with his reasoning.
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Offline blowfish

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I thought I could put a stop to it by laying the smackdown on blowfish; I now apologize for singling him out, as it clearly did little to establish precedent for everybody else.

I guess it doesn't pay to be at the front of a mob of n00bs :nervous:

ngtm1r has some valid points though.

 

Offline Mobius

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I know I can't change the decisions taken by the Administrations but I really need to say that this Announcement has...its consequences.

 

Offline colecampbell666

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Seriously, what is all this *****ing about?
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 

Offline Mobius

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There's someone who doesn't agree. "*****ing"? People have all the right to make their opinion public.

 

Offline colecampbell666

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But Goob made a fair policy. I'll say it for those who can't read:


YOU CAN HAVE MORE THAN 20 MISSIONS IF YOU SHOW SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS BEFORE ASKING FOR A SITE.

God...I hate having to do that. It makes me seem like an asshole.
Gettin' back to dodgin' lasers.

 

Offline Mobius

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I share ngtm1r's opinion. His good points weren't only about the limit of 20 missions. Read his post and let me know if he's completely or partially wrong.

 

Offline Tolwyn

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Read his post...

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Offline karajorma

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He's wrong because he doesn't seem able to grasp the difference between 20 missions being a yardstick and 20 missions being the yardstick.

I've got no idea why people seem to think the admins are morons who will approve total conversions from newbies with 19 missions but will turn down completed campaigns with 21. it seems that any admin posting intentions on this site has it then gone over by people looking for the slightest little thing to argue about regardless of how sensible it actually is.

Let's see if I can make it clear. If the admins think your project is too ambitious to see the light of day we won't host it. If we think there is a good chance of a release we will. If you're in the grey area you'll have to do enough work to convince us before we'll accept you.

Was that really so hard to grasp? :rolleyes:
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Offline blowfish

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I guess the admins need to articulate better than :rolleyes: