[Fenrir]

Y'know, Snail, I kind of disagree.

I felt that the terrifying thing about the Shivans in FS2 was that they clearly didn't need good ships. It wasn't even that they were a Zerg-type species, relying on pure numbers.

They simply didn't care what kind of resistance we offered. They didn't need to do their best and they knew it.

I have sometimes wondered if our most desperate resistance simply introduced minor perturbations into the vastness of the Shivan war machine -- perturbations corrected by the most basic reactive systems, perhaps even below Shivan consciousness.

For all we know, the Sathanas fleet was nothing more than platelets converging on a wound.

I feel the same way. The fact that the Shivans are to be able to work the GTVA without seeming to really be all that focused on doing so adds an interesting dimension to them.

[Al Tarket]

Y'know, Snail, I kind of disagree.

I felt that the terrifying thing about the Shivans in FS2 was that they clearly didn't need good ships. It wasn't even that they were a Zerg-type species, relying on pure numbers.

They simply didn't care what kind of resistance we offered. They didn't need to do their best and they knew it.

I have sometimes wondered if our most desperate resistance simply introduced minor perturbations into the vastness of the Shivan war machine -- perturbations corrected by the most basic reactive systems, perhaps even below Shivan consciousness.

For all we know, the Sathanas fleet was nothing more than platelets converging on a wound.

I feel the same way. The fact that the Shivans are to be able to work the GTVA without seeming to really be all that focused on doing so adds an interesting dimension to them.

The Shivans returned because the Vasudan's and Terrans where moving in on places the Shivans didn't want which would fit the meaning of xenophobia. Now for all we know the shivans where lying dormant in ross 128 the whole time before the t-v war which would imply and confirm that the shivans and terrans already had contact before the incident at Ross 128 which would also fit what they said after the briefing on operation thresher. it would also fit the assumption that the shivans already knew that the future about the terrans or just lucky that the shivans where reactivated from dormancy in Ross 128 or deliberately placed their and reactivated on purpose .

speculation

i suspect that the shivans where programmed only to destroy the Ancients. Their creators probably had no idea that the Terrans or Vasudans would be around in/or after their life times, however the Shivans where probably only targeted to destroy ancients and mistook the Terrans as an ancient ship when proper contact was established. For all we know the Shivans don't even know the ancients ever have even been killed yet.

[NGTM-1R]

The Manticore IS better than the Astaroth.

Reasons:
The Manticore is faster than the Astaroth.
The Manticore has a shorter Rotation Time.
The Manticore has more shielding than the Astaroth.

The only good thing about the Astaroth is that it has a smaller target profile at certain angles.

However the Manticore's raw speed and greater afterburner capacity are in fact a false advantage, because they encourage the AI to go fast and do a lot of afterburning. Which murders its turn radius (basic physics strikes again), making it relatively easy to turn inside a Manticore. (Other notable offenders in this category often include AI-controlled Serapis.) A Herc II can turn inside a Manticore very consistantly because of this. This cannot be said of an Astaroth.

[Iranon]

That's a flaw in the pilot though. Manoeverability I can understand, at least in the hands of humans using suboptimal controls, but 'too much speed' can be solved by shunting some more power to shields or simply not flying at full throttle...


Regarding improvement: Volition generally avoided having one craft be strictly superior to another. Apollo/Perseus and Hercules/Ares might come close enough that there is no reason to pick the older craft in practice though. Unable to carry real bombs, the Athena was essentially an assault fighter with a focus on secondaries, and I'd say the true successor in spirit is the Hercules Mk II (Trebuchets do the job of disabling subsystems just as well as Stilettos).
While the Athena had advantages that made her more pleasant to fly (even better gun placements, more endurance on afterburners) I'd say the Herc II is generally the stronger craft.

Regarding 'fodder' craft: How well the AI performs in a given craft doesn't necessarily reflect how good it is in the hands of a human pilot. I for one never understood why the AI seemed to do decently in a Ulysses when they otherwise suck in light craft (I still think that the Scorpion and Loki* are the ultimate dogfighters of their respective factions; as AI-controlled opponents they tend to die quickly though). On the other hand, the AI's use of fighter suppression missiles is more competent than my own.

*when having unrestricted access to weapons at least

[General Battuta]

The Shivans returned because the Vasudan's and Terrans where moving in on places the Shivans didn't want which would fit the meaning of xenophobia. Now for all we know the shivans where lying dormant in ross 128 the whole time before the t-v war which would imply and confirm that the shivans and terrans already had contact before the incident at Ross 128 which would also fit what they said after the briefing on operation thresher. it would also fit the assumption that the shivans already knew that the future about the terrans or just lucky that the shivans where reactivated from dormancy in Ross 128 or deliberately placed their and reactivated on purpose .

speculation

i suspect that the shivans where programmed only to destroy the Ancients. Their creators probably had no idea that the Terrans or Vasudans would be around in/or after their life times, however the Shivans where probably only targeted to destroy ancients and mistook the Terrans as an ancient ship when proper contact was established. For all we know the Shivans don't even know the ancients ever have even been killed yet.

As you said -- speculation, all of it. We don't know!

I always found the Astaroth more difficult to kill than the Manticore, but perhaps that was power of suggestion, what with your wingmates yowling THEY'RE TOO FAST when all the Astaroths start jumping in.

[Rodo]

Each time they meet the GTVA barely stop the Shivans. That's part of their mystique. Also, the Shivans seem nearly endless, while the GTVA feels the loss of each of their pilots.

That's the point, shivans are invincible.. that's what scares the **** out of every terran-vasudan, even the ancients knew this, in one of the cuts it says that "they do not die"

[Snail]

However the Manticore's raw speed and greater afterburner capacity are in fact a false advantage, because they encourage the AI to go fast and do a lot of afterburning. Which murders its turn radius (basic physics strikes again), making it relatively easy to turn inside a Manticore. (Other notable offenders in this category often include AI-controlled Serapis.) A Herc II can turn inside a Manticore very consistantly because of this. This cannot be said of an Astaroth.

Hmm that's true.