[manwiththemachinegun]

Pretty much sums up how I feel on the matter Droid. 

[-Norbert-]

Okay, maybe I phrased it wrong.
The militarisation alone is surely not the reason for the Shivans attack. They only attacked the GTA and Vasudans after years of war and later the GTVA and NTF after month of war.
So I guess it's not just the militarisation but the actual fighting that attrackts the Shivans attention.

So the GTVA attacks the UEF to save them from the shivans and thus making the shivans attack both sides. For me that would be very ironic.

But wether you agree with me or not, is still no reason to call me stupid....

[General Battuta]

Certainly wouldn't call you stupid.

[Snail]

Maybe it never occurred to you that the Shivans returned in FS2 because Bosch opened the portal.

[-Norbert-]

It did occur to me.
I never said it was a fact, that Shivans come only because of the war, but just a theory ("But if the Shivans really do only attack..." notice the conditional form?).

But considering that the Humans and Vasudans can build their own portal based on only scans of one original portal, isn't it very likely that the technologically more advanced Shivans could do the same if they really wanted to?
It would also fit in well with the "[....] all jumppoints to sol have been destroyed [....] I was told the Shivans can rebuild them [....]" part of the FS1 closing sequence.

[Snail]

But considering that the Humans and Vasudans can build their own portal based on only scans of one original portal, isn't it very likely that the technologically more advanced Shivans could do the same if they really wanted to?
It would also fit in well with the "[....] all jumppoints to sol have been destroyed [....] I was told the Shivans can rebuild them [....]" part of the FS1 closing sequence.

Maybe I misunderstood your post.

They only attacked the GTA and Vasudans after years of war and later the GTVA and NTF after month of war.

I took that to mean that the Shivans attacked because they sensed the fighting between the NTF and GTVA.

[manwiththemachinegun]

I certainly think it's a factor, and it is ironic since the end of the T-V war was in many ways, a chance for humanity to start again. It's likely the Shivans are drawn by destructive cultures and subspace disturbances. It's also likely they engage in horrible acts of destruction for completely inane and unknowable reasons.

[Droid803]

Okay, maybe I phrased it wrong.
The militarisation alone is surely not the reason for the Shivans attack. They only attacked the GTA and Vasudans after years of war and later the GTVA and NTF after month of war.
So I guess it's not just the militarisation but the actual fighting that attrackts the Shivans attention.

So the GTVA attacks the UEF to save them from the shivans and thus making the shivans attack both sides. For me that would be very ironic.

But wether you agree with me or not, is still no reason to call me stupid....

Maybe you read my post wrong. Let me reiterate.

I wasn't calling anyone stupid. I was saying that the line I put in quotations was a stupid reason (read: one that is unsound) to demilitarize, and that it doesn't make sense.

The idea that the Shivans attack because they sense conflict isn't stupid. It's a rather valid conclusion that can be drawn from the events of FS1 and FS2. Whether that's really the case, we don't know, but it's a good guess. However, the GTVA can't reliably act upon this because, just as easily, it could not be the case.

[-Norbert-]

Oh well, then sorry I jumped at you like that. Considing I stated militarising instead of the actual fighting I meant you certainly got a point there....

@Snail:
I guess you misunderstood me only partially, since I meant that, but just as a possibility not a certainty (can there be anything certain about the Shivans? ).

As advaned as the Shivans are, it woudn't surprise me if they would have been able to build their own portal in the nebula (which wasn't necessary due to the Trinity opening the way for them).

Come to think of it, maybe it wasn't even the Knossos that stabilized the node permanentely, but it could have been the Satanas that did that....

[Akalabeth Angel]

I've always maintained that the Ancients closed down the portal during the Shivan invasion to try and prevent getting annihilated, hoping that they could defeat what forces had already made it through (ie the Lucifer and it's kin). But they failed. Then the Lucifer and it's fleet flies around a bit and goes dormant or whatever and eventually during the TVWar they return to wreak unholy havoc. But having defeated them, the Shivans are effectively gone from the immediate area (the nebula being far far away). Then Bosch being the idiot that he is opens up the portal and the shivans again have access to the area and begin to pour through.

FS1 does say Shivans can rebuild the nodes but there's no evidence that they do anything of the sort in FS2. Aside from possible conjecture stemming from the end cinematic.

[nuone]

Earth being weak? Plausible. Yet consider the history of many western societies. In a book I read about Western Civilization and warfare, it iterated the fact that most democracies are slow to wage war. Nonetheless, when PROVOKED they unleash a destructive force unparalleled by other forms of governments (Greeks - Persians / Romans - Carthaginians / USA - Japanese). Free societies, when provoked have proven to be highly resourceful, adaptive, determined, and even unforgiving. As some implied, the GTVA did not even bother with diplomacy. Earth, with it so called "pacificism", probably would not have contested GTVA independence. Even if the GTVA win the war, they would alienate the hearts and minds of the very society they wish to protect. Negating manpower and creating a base of resistance.

It is also fitting to note that Hitler justified -in part- world domination, by claiming his people were "threatened" by other "inferior" races. The subtleties are terrifying.

[The E]

  What does that have to do with anything?

It is also fitting to note that Hitler justified -in part- world domination, by claiming his people were "threatened" by other "inferior" races. The subtleties are terrifying.

Mate, why did you godwin a perfectly good thread?

And I would point out that the GTVA's interest in this is not to rule over some inferior race. They wish to ensure humanities survival in a universe that has at least one species which is perfectly capable of eradicating humanity (and vasudanity as well) whenever it wishes.
Staying at a high level of readiness, being prepared to go out and start fighting at a moments' notice, that's what the GTVA military is all about. As such, they cannot justify leaving Earth (biggest economy, biggest population base...) alone in the hands of a pacifist regime that does not follow the same ideal.

[NGTM-1R]

lol hitler comparison.

Wake up, son.

This is the state of the world: The GTVA could, at any time, be swept away by a Shivan attack. Their only hope for survival, not even of the political establishment but of the species, is strong forward defense and constant readiness. Ubuntu, merely by existing, would destroy both those things; the first by the movement of large segments of the population to Sol, the second by devaluing the military.

It is not even, in the end, about the fact that Earth's resources could save humanity, though they well could. It is about the fact that Earth's political leadership will doom humanity, and the Vasudans to boot. Not could, not even would, but will. It has nothing to do with "inferior races" or resources or population. It has everything to do with the fact that Ubuntu as a political philosophy amounts to the suicide of all known non-Shivan life.

This is not mere hyperbole. This is not justification. This is the best minds of the Terran and Vasudan races coming to this conclusion, before the plan to conquer Sol was ever considered.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Does this justify a portion of the GTVA's decision to reclaim Sol by force then? I think it does.

The sad thing is that the GTVA has faced so many horrors from the Shivans (two costly wars) that they know the repercussions of not being prepared for them. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has been cut off from the rest of the universe and the Shivans for so long that they've been able to unify themselves and are almost on the brink of reaching total harmony when the GTVA reopened the portal to Sol.

[-Norbert-]

But there is one thing the GTVA overlooked.
So far Ubuntu could succeed among the general popultion, because of the isolation of Sol. They were all alone in their system with no way in or out.
Now that the way is again open, there must be a lot of people who fear the Shivans, and whatever other horrors might be lurking out there, enough to lapse onto the philosophy of the GTVA.

As you can see at elections all over the world, fear is a great motivator. And the GTVA wouldn't even need to tell lies to get the population afraid, the truth is horrifying enough.

[Dilmah G]

Keep in mind, most of the citizens who grew up under Ubuntu would never have known the Shivans. And when you've been safe and secure (in comparison) for the past lifetime, the fear factor would've worn off at least a little. And besides, Ubuntu stresses non-violence IIRC (I wouldn't vouch on my memory of WiH plot details though, ), the sheer prospect of multi-system warfare probably gives the Elders something to choke on.

Does this justify a portion of the GTVA's decision to reclaim Sol by force then? I think it does.

The sad thing is that the GTVA has faced so many horrors from the Shivans (two costly wars) that they know the repercussions of not being prepared for them. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has been cut off from the rest of the universe and the Shivans for so long that they've been able to unify themselves and are almost on the brink of reaching total harmony when the GTVA reopened the portal to Sol.

I wouldn't say there were on Harmony's doorstep, and besides, I'd put my 50 on humanity getting face-****ed by the Shivans if by some miracle they found a shortcut to Sol. But if it were true that the Shivans only go into Annihalation Mode when they were provoked, then life on Sol would never have known the Shivans again with Ubuntu in power and the Tevs going along their merry way.

[NGTM-1R]

But there is one thing the GTVA overlooked.
So far Ubuntu could succeed among the general popultion, because of the isolation of Sol. They were all alone in their system with no way in or out.
Now that the way is again open, there must be a lot of people who fear the Shivans, and whatever other horrors might be lurking out there, enough to lapse onto the philosophy of the GTVA.

As you can see at elections all over the world, fear is a great motivator. And the GTVA wouldn't even need to tell lies to get the population afraid, the truth is horrifying enough.

One of the things I've speculated about the GTVA's war against the UEF is that they don't even have to win it. They just have to look like they can. If Ubuntu cannot protect its people from the GTVA, it has no hope against the Shivans.

Also all this talk about the UEF achieving harmony may be overrated. We don't know how they've gotten their society where it is. It could be decidely unharmonious in execution (almost has to be).

And the Vishies didn't grab a UEF pilot to be their instrument. They grabbed a GTVA Terran pilot, a veteran of Capella with serious issues. I don't think harmony should be cast here in the terms everyone's chosing for it.

[-Norbert-]

I think the choice of the Vishnans can't really be taken into account here.
They didn't save the battlegroup because of how close to transcendence some of it's members were, but because they didn't belong in that universe.

For the Vishnans to communicate with the GTVA stragglers they had to choose one of their numbers, so they never were in a position to actually choose a UEF pilot.

Besides, they chose an individual (or actually two, since they communicated with both father and son) and just because one or two people in the GTVA are closer to the ideal of the Vishnans doesn't mean that UEF as a whole is less "enlightened" than the GTVA as a whole.

[Aardwolf]

I'm tired of having to keep my mouth shut about that thing I saw which I shouldn't have seen.

 

Edit: In response to this:

Besides, they chose an individual (or actually two, since they communicated with both father and son) and just because one or two people in the GTVA are closer to the ideal of the Vishnans doesn't mean that UEF as a whole is less "enlightened" than the GTVA as a whole.

both of those people defected to the UEF 

[Dilmah G]

wut.