Author Topic: Modelling tutorial ?  (Read 13441 times)

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Offline Stormkeeper

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So he's a Maxist and a Mayan.

Autodeskian more like it.

 

Offline Stormkeeper

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Hmmm. So its like Autodeskian, and an Autodeskian can either be a Maxist or Mayan or both. And then you have Blenderists and finally the Truespazists.
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So...what do you call someone who uses solidworks? :lol:

 

Offline Stormkeeper

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A ... a ... Solidian?
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or how about a Xsist or pixist or milker or <fake french accent>Za'brusher</fake french accent> or  lightweaver?  :lol:


But not a Marxist  :lol:

So much for all your highbrow Marxist ways
Just use me up and then you walk away
Boy you can’t play me that way.
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Offline Stormkeeper

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Lightweaver actually sounds pretty cool. :p

Not milker tho. :lol:
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Lightweaver actually sounds pretty cool. :p

Not milker tho. :lol:

Ya same with Sketcher.
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline Stormkeeper

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Sketcher doesn't sound so bad ...
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Offline pecenipicek

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Maxonist here :p
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Offline TrashMan

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Fine. :p

Do something like this:



In truespaz without massive hairloss. :p

I can, but I won't. I never liked the Hades, so I see no reason to make one.
In fact, I can probably make a similar model faster than you.

As proved by my 29857819 models from 192 games made in my time using TS. How many models you made so far? 3?
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Offline Vasudan Admiral

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I can, but I won't. I never liked the Hades, so I see no reason to make one.
In fact, I can probably make a similar model faster than you.

As proved by my 29857819 models from 192 games made in my time using TS. How many models you made so far? 3?
Don't get all defensive and do that whole mis-aimed lashing out thing you're beginning to do now man - this is not an issue of modelling skill but an issue of modelling applications. :)

My point all along has been that the bugs in truespace combined with the infuriatingly limited toolset results in hugely inefficient roundabout methods of solving modelling problems. The workflow is more like a rocky river rapid than anything else. I know I'm sounding awfully generic here, but I can give you many down to earth technical situations where the method you use in truespace is far too complex for what the solution actually involves in other modellers.

Remember that I'm not just dissing TS for superficial reasons. I learned truespace and blender at the same time, with more emphasis placed on truespace than blender. For my end of school major work I used truespace to create a cutscene, and doing that required me to get to know the program quite well. Green modeller as I was then, I was horrified at some of the omissions and bugs I recognised as being the logical requirement to solve issues - with no prior knowledge about similar features in other programs. Some animation examples would be a completely primitive lens flare system quite unsuitable for animations, no particle system at all (I actually bought a primitive itch plug-in to handle that and even then the results were so-so).

Other omissions can be found in the modelling tools, like the half-functional weld verts which must have certain conditions met before it will deign to work, no kind of 'join meshes' functionality beyond the unstable booleans, which are completely unsuitable in many cases, no kind of auto normal calculations, no UV auto unwrapping or smart projections, an incredibly cumbersome and slow existing UV mapping utility, etc. This list goes on and I would be happy to expand on it for anyone who is even just curious, but the point is that these are not vague little tools that only occasionally come in a little handy - they are major time and effort savers, and/or allow you to do things you couldn't feasibly do otherwise.

Anyway - let me just again emphasise that this is a debate about modelling tools and not attacks on individual skills, because I know I'm slow. I recognise that I'm far too meticulous in every aspect, and it continually pisses me off. I mean, I get things done on the whole but it's just nowhere near the amount I want to have done. This whole year I've built: the hades mesh and the in game under construction model used in the ST:R teaser, a new HTL aten, a HTL amazon drone, a full set of asteroids and 2 species debris chunks and a bunch of other varying FSU model fixes and reconversions, the gladius marauder and partway through the vanguard for Yosephs mod, all new high res subspace effects, 2 reasonably complex scenes for the port lucifer survives cutscene, finished off the HTL iceni, ulysses and the Horus, built half a new private yacht for TI and have done tons of testing for PCS2 and collada support.

I think overall I am in fact getting more done, but that just means I've put tons 'more' into each and every project. The hades for example is something like 80 000 polygons; far more detailed than anything I've built previously. What I need to do now is speed up how I do that existing 'more' without putting yet 'more' into them, because individual development time gets impractically long.
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Offline blowfish

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I can, but I won't. I never liked the Hades, so I see no reason to make one.

That's not the point.  This has nothing to do with the Hades specifically (it was just being used as an example).

In fact, I can probably make a similar model faster than you.

I have yet to see you make anything half as detailed as that.  Feel free to prove me wrong though...

As proved by my 29857819 models from 192 games made in my time using TS. How many models you made so far? 3?

While you have certainly made more models than VA, the quality of his tends to be somewhat higher.  So I guess it's a trade of quality vs quantity :P
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 12:41:26 pm by blowfish »

 
In fact, I can probably make a similar model faster than you.

I have yet to see you make anything half as detailed as that.  Feel free to prove me wrong though...

         80K Polygons? Has anyone made anything as half detailed as that?
         Vasudan Admiral just made a post saying it wasn't about modelling skills but about modelling tools, I don't see the reason to follow it up with another post which is completely contrary to what he wants to focus on.

 
You are forgetting about us "Rhinocerousts" or Rhino Zealot if you prefer  :p
Of course my tool list comprises:
Rhinocerous 4
Deep Exploration/3D Explorer
Lithunwrap
PCS2
Paint Shop Pro 7

I do have to use Deep Exploration for my conversions then PCS2 but so far it seems to work well enough after going through the process a few times.  I have to say its a 100 times easier "For ME" than using TS , plus I can actually use CAD type precision on the model itself.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 06:18:04 pm by KewlToyZ »

 

Offline TrashMan

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There are only 2 things that I personally find TS has lacking when making various meshes for games:

1. UM mapping thing with 1 detailed texture (for fighters for instance)

2. Mirroring and connecting.


I only use 3D Max for that. Capital ships I do in TS completely.
And I have no idea what version of TS you wee using, nor how long you've been using it, but I certnaly don't have half the problems you claim.

3D MAx is a more powerful tool, especially for animating (and sine I don't don't waste my time making animations, but rather functional in-game models), but TS is easier and faster.

That Hades model certanly is impressive, but I'm not convinced such level of detail was needed for the game. Kudos to you if you want to add that much. Maybe if I had more time I would add more detail to some of my models, but alas, I'm spread out too thin over various projects as it is (BOTF2, UFO:AI, SOTS, FS2, etc, etc..), so getting a HTL model out at all is a miracle. 
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Offline Vasudan Admiral

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@VA
There are only 2 things that I personally find TS has lacking when making various meshes for games:

1. UM mapping thing with 1 detailed texture (for fighters for instance)

2. Mirroring and connecting.
Well right there those are two very important tools. Switching programs in order to overcome those problems is a horrible solution. I used to have to do the exact same thing with TS -> lithunwrap for the same first reason.

I only use 3D Max for that. Capital ships I do in TS completely.
And I have no idea what version of TS you wee using, nor how long you've been using it, but I certnaly don't have half the problems you claim.
Version 6 for approximately 4-5 years. These aren't bugs I'm talking about here though - these are lackings in the feature set, so you would indeed have all the same problems. Maybe if you learned TS alone then you learned to live without these features, but in that case you really don't know what you're missing!

Let's take for example the lack of a join meshes function. TS does have a (clunky) 'separate selected part from object' function, so why does it not have a tool that operates in reverse? In blender you select two objects and press ctrl+j. In 3DS Max you select two objects and press attach. In truespace you must move your objects around so they are not intersecting, select both and boolean union them, making sure it won't erase triangulation, and then select and move the verts of the object you just added back into their original position if they were at all intersecting the other object. Add to that the fact that booleans are unstable in TS. Union in this case is typically pretty safe but it's still a risk that TS will either not perform the task or simply crash if you have certain other problems in the meshes involved.

3D MAx is a more powerful tool, especially for animating (and sine I don't don't waste my time making animations, but rather functional in-game models), but TS is easier and faster.
So you don't do animations - that's fine, but you must understand that animations are typically very important for campaigns as well. Cutscenes, CBANIs, talking heads, animated texture effects, animated weapon effects etc are simply other aspects of FS2 modding that a decent modelling tool should be capable of.

That Hades model certanly is impressive, but I'm not convinced such level of detail was needed for the game. Kudos to you if you want to add that much. Maybe if I had more time I would add more detail to some of my models, but alas, I'm spread out too thin over various projects as it is (BOTF2, UFO:AI, SOTS, FS2, etc, etc..), so getting a HTL model out at all is a miracle. 
That hades is a cutscene model first, in-game model second, but that unfortunately means it's a bit of a hybrid development wise. It has the complexity of the geometry seen in cutscene models but will be textured with the annoyingly meticulous methods I use for in-game models. I'm trying new techniques though
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Not trying to get into this argument but...

Do either have a symetry modifier (and i'm not talking simple instance mirroring)? [Maya doesn't seem to]
Do either lock you on a object when your in subobject selection?[Maya doesn't seem to]
Do either have a unwrap UV where you break apart an object based on it's planar angle to another?
Can you manually view/copy and edit x/y/z locations view keyboard?  [absolutely required for precision work]
Does truespace have a node/stack/history, I know blender and maya do.
How good is their greebling tools, if any?  [The max plugin is kinda wonky at times]
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 
Rhino lets me modify and match symmetry with projection.
As far as UV mapping, the 3rd party apps always seem to be the way to get nicer tools than the interfaces which usually still come in under the price for Max. The usual problems come back though, file type conversions back and forth, but I got used to it and look at it as a means of backup.
Are greebles for animation?

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Wings3D ... the only thing I don't like about it is the lack of boolean operations.