[Ford Prefect]

Whatever. Everyone in your country spells "favorite" wrong. Checkmate.

[Mongoose]

Ah, the "You're not here so you can't know what it's like" argument . Always a firm favourite. Always so wonderfully flawed for so many reasons.

I didn't say that you couldn't possibly know, but I'd put a hell of a lot more credence on the informed opinion of someone who's spent his or her entire life in this country than on someone going on whatever output they're receiving from media and entertainment sources.  I certainly wouldn't feel qualified in the least to comment on the political or social circumstances of Britain, even if I did peruse the BBC's site every day.  I could just as easily spout nonsense pigeonholing your entire populace into disaffected snobs, asinine chavs, or drunken Scots, but I'm not about to do that.

(Wales, you fit in there somewhere, but I'm not sure that anyone over there knows where either.)

[karajorma]

You don't need to live in a septic tank for a year to know it stinks. In fact after a year you'd get so used to the smell that the opinions of someone who didn't live in one would probably be more valid.

[Colonol Dekker]

That's quite apt, No not just in this context, but in most things, such as business models, coding etc etc. Fresh / external perspectives are normally less biased. I'm sure the same could be said of some of the UK.

[Mongoose]

You don't need to live in a septic tank for a year to know it stinks. In fact after a year you'd get so used to the smell that the opinions of someone who didn't live in one would probably be more valid.

But what definitive evidence have you provided to back up your opinion?  When I look around me every day and see people more engrossed by this election than any other in my lifetime (and let me tell you, the previous two were hardly picnics), when I have my phone ringing off the hook every day over these past few weeks with volunteers from all manner of political campaigns trying to tell me about their candidates, when the sketch comedy series Saturday Night Live's political sketches are pulling in the highest ratings the show has seen in 10-15 years, when a candidate like Obama practically has a nationwide rabid fanbase, when I see predictions that this election could have the largest voter turnout in decades...when I add all of that up, the very last description of the American public as a whole that comes to my mind is "apathetic."  And yes, this is just one limited example for one particular election, but I've seen this same general public raise heaps of money for all sorts of charities, participate in sometimes-staggering numbers in things like walks for breast cancer research, and do any number of things that decent people anywhere in the world who find it in themselves to care about a certain cause would do...none of which could be called "apathetic" in any real sense.

So, then, let me ask this of you: when you use that term, to which aspect of the society that I live in are you referring, and in what context?  Because from where I stand, if you're just tossing that term around without any justification, you might as well say that Americans all believe that the moon is made of cheese.

[karajorma]

In the election, yes. But in actually doing anything about it if they suspect cheating, no. And if you remember that is what the topic was about.

And you wouldn't believe the amount of stuff there is out there about Diebold. If you really want to read up on it I'm more than happy to post links.

[General Battuta]

I think everyone's aware of the possibility of the Republicans stealing the election. There's definitely activism on that front.

[Rian]

If you knew that someone was trying to rig the election, just how exactly would you go about fighting it? By making that knowledge public, right? The fact that there are so many articles about people’s registrations being purged or lost or denied and voting machines malfunctioning and so forth means that there are people watching for foul play and doing their part to stop it.

And if you google some variation on “disenfranchise 2008” or “voters purged” or what have you, it’s apparent that this sort of thing is being caught all over the place, (or how would we know about it?) and that people are taking action against it, as evidenced by the number of lawsuits you’ll see mentioned.

I know that of the blogs I regularly read, most of which are not explicitly political in nature, almost all have posted about this issue and encouraged people to vote early, fight disenfranchisement, and make sure their votes count. I wouldn’t call that apathy.

[karajorma]

Don't you think that there is something wrong with the system when you have to tell people to vote early to avoid disenfranchisement though?

[General Battuta]

I doubt she's denying that there's something wrong with the system, but the argument is about whether people care, or are doing anything about it. Which they are. We'll see if it's enough people.

[spartan_0214]

Don't you think that there is something wrong with the system when you have to tell people to vote early to avoid disenfranchisement though?

It's not that. It's that not everyone can get time off to vote on Tuesday. I'm at college right now, so I had to run up to Albuquerque to vote a couple of weekends ago. I will give you that it makes it easier to avoid disenfranchisement, but that's not why people vote early. That begs the question though, why is election day on Tuesday?

[karajorma]

Well you and Rian can argue over which one of you is right and then I'll take on the winner.

I doubt she's denying that there's something wrong with the system, but the argument is about whether people care, or are doing anything about it. Which they are. We'll see if it's enough people.

If enough people cared the system wouldn't be broken though.

[Mongoose]

At least according to this article, it's a holdover from the days when you'd need to hitch up your horse and buggy to make it to your local polling place.   It allowed a day for travel on either side while avoiding the Sabbath or the usual market day on Wednesday.  I haven't the foggiest idea why it hasn't been declared a federal holiday, although apparently one representative has recently introduced a bill that would do just that.

And karajorma, seeing as how this will most likely be the most-scrutinized election in this nation's history, I find the idea that "Diebold will steal my votes! ZOMG!" to be utterly laughable at best.  People from both parties are going to be watching just about every voting district like a hawk.  If anything starts coming up odd, they'll trumpet it to the heavens.  These are the very sorts of people that deny your assertion, since they're the ones giving of their time and energy to ensure that the system works as it's supposed to.

[General Battuta]

Well you and Rian can argue over which one of you is right and then I'll take on the winner.

I doubt she's denying that there's something wrong with the system, but the argument is about whether people care, or are doing anything about it. Which they are. We'll see if it's enough people.

If enough people cared the system wouldn't be broken though.

That's probably not true. Stuff tends to break, since people try very hard to exploit systems. Corrections aren't instantaneous and effortless, nor are defensive measures.

[Mongoose]

And just getting the teeming masses outraged about something isn't going to automagically get it fixed.  Short of an armed uprising, there isn't much a few million irate Average Joes can do to effect any sort of legal change.  This is the very reason we have activist groups that do have legal experience and can take the right steps to bring dirty dealings to light...just as they did in the Florida example that you yourself brought to light earlier in the thread.

[karajorma]

And just getting the teeming masses outraged about something isn't going to automagically get it fixed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution

[Rian]

I never claimed that avoiding disenfranchisement was the only reason to vote early, or even the primary reason. On the other hand, it’s pretty clear that you get more people voting when they’re allowed to vote on their own schedules. Because a lot of disenfranchisement efforts have focused on financially disadvantaged voters – those least able to afford a day off work to go vote – I would say that Spartan and I are talking about two different aspects of the same issue.

I’ve never claimed that the system was perfect. To the contrary, I think it’s cumbersome, outdated, and has failed a lot of people. But that’s a separate issue entirely from claiming that the public doesn’t care – an attitude that I’m beginning to think has more to do with feeling superior to the stupid Americans than actual concern for the issues. The United States is a large and incredibly diverse nation, and although a great many people in this country are committed, hardworking, and passionate, they’re passionate about different and sometimes contradictory things.

Coordinating a revolution among 300 million people of widely varying cultural, geographic, and political perspectives is probably an impossible task. We work within the system we have, we make noise and point out injustice when we see it, and if the voters do the job right, we’ll elect the people who are most likely to improve things as well.

[Topgun]

Everyone is all upset about Republicans cheating but no one is talking about how the democrats had dead people vote for them in the last two elections. the system is so corrupt that it really doesn't matter who you vote for.
what matters is who can cheat the most while getting away with it.

and voting early (I think) makes cheating easier. it seems that it's just too easy to vote twice under different names.

BTW if obama doesn't win riot will ensue. then again, if he does win he will probably be impeached.
strange strange world, aint it?

[karajorma]

Everyone is all upset about Republicans cheating but no one is talking about how the democrats had dead people vote for them in the last two elections.

Cause they lost. Had they won this argument would have been the other way around.

But that’s a separate issue entirely from claiming that the public doesn’t care – an attitude that I’m beginning to think has more to do with feeling superior to the stupid Americans than actual concern for the issues.

Ah, so now we're going to the Anti-Americanism defence. I did wonder when that one would pop up. Have I not already said that I wish the people in the UK cared more already?


Try making a comment about this sort of thing about British politics and see what happens. Everyone agrees with you. That's why we don't have debates like this about British politics. It's not that no one starts topics bashing the British political system or our stupid, short-sighted, greedy politicians or the idiots who vote them into power. It's just that only when dealing with America do you get people so desperate to defend their country that they'll argue the point  rather than simply agreeing.

[Topgun]

Everyone is all upset about Republicans cheating but no one is talking about how the democrats had dead people vote for them in the last two elections.

Cause they lost. Had they won this argument would have been the other way around.

but who says they won't do it again?

anyway, am I the only one here that thinks that the world will end really, really soon?
^^^^totally not off topic^^^^^