Author Topic: So something interesting is (finally?) happening in Canadian politics  (Read 3956 times)

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Offline IceFire

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Re: So something interesting is (finally?) happening in Canadian politics
Well I think doing what the Conservatives were planning on would only cripple the two major opposition parties and leave them in a very nice position to dominate politics.  Not a good scenario at all.  Certainly not in the current state of affairs but not really ever was that a good idea...no matter which party was doing it to who.  For the sake of having credible parties around to balance and counter balance.

Its a system.  A damn good one too.  It works extremely well even when it appears to not be working but when you start to tinker with the fundamentals and try and cripple opposition parties...thats when we start to loose our country.

We'll have to disagree there.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: So something interesting is (finally?) happening in Canadian politics
Well I think doing what the Conservatives were planning on would only cripple the two major opposition parties and leave them in a very nice position to dominate politics.  Not a good scenario at all.  Certainly not in the current state of affairs but not really ever was that a good idea...no matter which party was doing it to who.  For the sake of having credible parties around to balance and counter balance.

Its a system.  A damn good one too.  It works extremely well even when it appears to not be working but when you start to tinker with the fundamentals and try and cripple opposition parties...thats when we start to loose our country.

We'll have to disagree there.

I'm not saying that right now was the appropriate time for such a major change - just that that change is eventually something I'd like to see enacted.  I find the political opportunism (now on both sides) just as distasteful as you.
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Re: So something interesting is (finally?) happening in Canadian politics
Can't speak much as to the actual current crisis in Canadian politics but in terms of the structure of party funding I'll chime in and say that as a supporter of (but not much of a believer in) democracy, funding must be kept seperated from independent contributors. If it's not it effectively amounts to priority voting; individuals or groups with undue influence due to the increased value of their vote/contribution. I really can't understand how you don't see that MP-Ryan. I dont mean to insult, but primarily using taxes to fund parties cannot be seen as the individual paying for parties that they don't like but instead it's paying for the system that allows parties to exist. Thats what democracy is. Everyone has some level of representation regardless of their ability to contribute financially.

Frankly, I see the current global lack of political will to actively tackle climate change (or any other global social/economic/environmental problem) as indicative of the fact that the entities the governing parties really care about are the large financial contributors who would be directly hurt by any such major initiatives. Call it a conspiracy theory or whatever you wish but thats something I would regard as fairly obvious.

Ireland, while sharing a British-type parliamentary system, has mainly privately funded parties which, while certainly as with my above argument, is a bad thing, doesn't really effect things to greatly as we're a small-fries country, but there are plently of political movements that don't get any money at all.

Just out of interest, we have, as stated, a British-type parliamentary democracy but it has a much stronger proportional representation basis, certainly than the British system but I can't comment on Canada's. That is everyone fills in a ballot with three votes of weighted importance for their prefered order of candidates. These are then transfered to the candidate of next importance as the prefered candidates reach the elected quota.

How does Canada's operate?
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Offline tinfoil

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Re: So something interesting is (finally?) happening in Canadian politics
you pick a candidate and carefully fold the ballot by following useless instructions. and then do it again a month later apparently  :rolleyes:
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Offline Rick James

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Re: So something interesting is (finally?) happening in Canadian politics
To clarify:

Canada has 308 electoral districts colloquially referred to as "ridings". When election time rolls around, candidates from different parties run in each riding. If a candidate from a certain party wins in a given riding, he or she becomes that riding's Member of Parliament. Voting is done via secret ballot; a pencil is used to mark an X beside the name of a candidate, and then dropped inside a ballot box. When the ballots are counted, representatives from each party, referred to as scrutineers, are present during the tallying process to make sure no fishy business goes on. The party with the most elected candidates becomes the new party in power, with the party that has the second largest amount of elected candidates becoming the official opposition.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 12:30:30 pm by Rick James »

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Offline tinfoil

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Re: So something interesting is (finally?) happening in Canadian politics
that too :p
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: So something interesting is (finally?) happening in Canadian politics
Can't speak much as to the actual current crisis in Canadian politics but in terms of the structure of party funding I'll chime in and say that as a supporter of (but not much of a believer in) democracy, funding must be kept seperated from independent contributors. If it's not it effectively amounts to priority voting; individuals or groups with undue influence due to the increased value of their vote/contribution. I really can't understand how you don't see that MP-Ryan. I dont mean to insult, but primarily using taxes to fund parties cannot be seen as the individual paying for parties that they don't like but instead it's paying for the system that allows parties to exist. Thats what democracy is. Everyone has some level of representation regardless of their ability to contribute financially.

Everyone still maintains the right to vote - they just aren't required to pay for political parties.  Keep in mind the funding we're talking about is not the funding of the government itself, but the discretionary funding of individual political parties - the money they use to create ad campaigns, operate their own party during elections, run sponsor events, etc.  If parties actually had to pay their own way out of donations of party members and private citizens then they would have to be much more careful about how that funding is spent.  One side effect would be the promotion of THEIR political message, as opposed to running smear ad campaigns in the media.  Right now, parties earn money based on the number of votes they get.  This creates an unfair advantage as well.

The way I see it, there are two options:
1) Fund themselves.
2) Everyone gets precisely the same amount of funding through tax dollars regardless of the number of votes and that value is capped - no private funding can be used.

Since the parties would scream even more if the actual amount of money they could use in their variety of media events, sponsorship dinners, and political party favours was capped to an absolute figure, the only viable fair alternative is to take the public out of it entirely and let all political funding be private.

My problem is with a system that allows private donations but simultaneously funds each party based on how popular it is.  When you look at it superficially it looks fair, but if you actually examine the system itself you'll find that minority and dissenting opinion is still entirely absent because the funding system only supports those political ideas which are popular with the majority.  It just APPEARS to be fair - which is an injustice unto itself.  That's why I believe our current system needs a serious revision.  I'd be just as pleased to see that revision be capped funding equivalent for all parties, but we all know that will never happen because it removes the unfair advantages afforded to the large mainstream parties... namely, the Conservatives and the Liberals.

Quote
How does Canada's operate?

Badly.

Our system is designed as a Parliamentary system with two houses, but in practice things are somewhat different.  Ridings for the House of Commons are distributed by absolute population (we do not have a proportional representation system in any way, shape, or form), and MPs in each riding are elected in a first-past-the-post system (e.g. the candidate with enough votes to take the riding relative to the votes distributed among the other candidates wins).  The House of Commons is comprised of the MPs elected nationally.  The political entity holding the most MPs governs - this is usually a single party, but in a few rare circumstances we have seen coalition governments.  The Commons, therefore, is entirely based around representation by population.

The second house is the Senate.  When Canada was created as a Confederation, the Senate was designed to be a regional representation system, based on an absolute number of senators with each region represented equally - this was designed to appease the smaller provinces and prevent the larger, more populous ones from dominating the federal government.  Unfortunately, that little experiment didn't last long.  The Senate currently functions as a body of appointed individuals, usually politically aligned with the Conservatives and Liberals, who review legislation passed by the Commons and provide an advisory capacity on policy.  In practice, that typically translates into a brief, poorly-attended vote where legislation from the Commons passes without a great deal of debate and certainly none of the traditional idea of representatives from each region reviewing if it is in the best interests of the country as a whole.

In short, the second part of our system which is supposed to act as a balance to the demands of the population (most of Canada's population is located in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec) doesn't.  Thus, the problems with national unity and some serious resentment towards the federal system at both the Western and Eastern ends of the country.

We could benefit enormously from either a reform of the Senate to its traditional role, or the elimination of the Senate entirely and a transition to proportional representation in the Commons.
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Re: So something interesting is (finally?) happening in Canadian politics
Thanks for the explainations.

As for the other, I still can't see how you reach your conclusion MP. Except maybe for possible different interpretations of your actual voting system.

I would say that, from what I've read here, your funding system (private contributions aside for the moment) works exactly like your voting system. Everyone has one vote for one candidate with no redistribution of excess votes because there is only one candidate per region/riding. Right? But wait, no, because, still, if individual votes are counted then funding IS completely proportional even if those votes are effectively meaningless when the recipient candidate is defeated.

Your main complaint seems to be that parties with popular ideals/policies, will get the most votes and therefore the most funding. But again, all I can say to that is, that's democracy. It's supposed to encourage populous rule. In a 100 voter system if everyone but me decides to vote for the Conservatives then they get 99% of the funding but my Legalise-Marriage-to-Cousins party still gets the other 1% (Or it might need to be a minimum of 2% according to wikipedia). The only way I can actually see to improve it is to remove private funding altogether.

Look at the most pronounced example of what you're proposing; the U.S.A. Are you going to tell me that the Democrats and Conservatives, who (allegedly apart from the recent Obama campaign) receive nearly all their funding privately, focus exclusively on political message ads? That they don't devote a hugh budget for smear and attack advertisements of all kinds? I think that's an aspect thats unavoidable nomatter where funding originates.

The only negative downside I can see is that the current funding system could lead to a negative funding feedback loop. For instance, wikipedia stated that the Conservatives achieved less votes than anticipated so the funding they received surplus and they were asked to repay the difference. That obviously requires private funding (or reserves, which essentially amounts to the same thing I think) or else the difference would have to come out of the next campaign, and because advertising is so vital, this could conceivably lead to another below par performance and a repeat of the process, again and again until funds and votes are gone.

But that's pretty theoretical.

I think, to sum it up, for me private funding essentially enables groups or most typically, corporations to have political sway, which is not how it's supposed to be. One person, one vote. Or preferably, one vote with three weighted selections.

And yes, single winner voting systems are in my opinion, grossly undemocratic. But possibly the only practical systems for larger countries, I don't know enough on the subject to even fathom a guess.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 03:53:06 pm by Rand al Thor »
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Offline Agent_Koopa

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Re: So something interesting is (finally?) happening in Canadian politics
Quote
The second house is the Senate.  When Canada was created as a Confederation, the Senate was designed to be a regional representation system, based on an absolute number of senators with each region represented equally - this was designed to appease the smaller provinces and prevent the larger, more populous ones from dominating the federal government.  Unfortunately, that little experiment didn't last long.  The Senate currently functions as a body of appointed individuals, usually politically aligned with the Conservatives and Liberals, who review legislation passed by the Commons and provide an advisory capacity on policy.  In practice, that typically translates into a brief, poorly-attended vote where legislation from the Commons passes without a great deal of debate and certainly none of the traditional idea of representatives from each region reviewing if it is in the best interests of the country as a whole.

In short, the second part of our system which is supposed to act as a balance to the demands of the population (most of Canada's population is located in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec) doesn't.  Thus, the problems with national unity and some serious resentment towards the federal system at both the Western and Eastern ends of the country.

Well, think of it this way. If the Senate received more of an active role, Canadians would have even less of an understanding of how government works! This way, you don't even need to know what the Senate does!
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Offline tinfoil

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Re: So something interesting is (finally?) happening in Canadian politics
this could just be a western perspective but i too believe that the senate no longer serves a valid purpose. the members aren't voted on and anyone could be a senator and hold a reltively powerfull position, not to mention being set for life. and all this for being friends with the PM or something similar. it's kind of silly.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: So something interesting is (finally?) happening in Canadian politics
Your main complaint seems to be that parties with popular ideals/policies, will get the most votes and therefore the most funding. But again, all I can say to that is, that's democracy. It's supposed to encourage populous rule. In a 100 voter system if everyone but me decides to vote for the Conservatives then they get 99% of the funding but my Legalise-Marriage-to-Cousins party still gets the other 1% (Or it might need to be a minimum of 2% according to wikipedia). The only way I can actually see to improve it is to remove private funding altogether.

Why should the ability to fund your political party and wage an election campaign be tied to how popular your party is?

I think you miss the point.  The current system is actually LESS fair than entirely privatized funding.  If funding were entirely private, parties would receive an amount of funding proportionate to their popularity within the voter base willing and able to donate to their political cause.  Corporate donations aren't a consideration in the Canadian system because they are essentially nil due to legislative restrictions.  The big business conspiracy theories can be safely ignored.

Instead, parties still receive private donations on that level, but they ALSO receive more funding through taxes based on the number of votes they received in the last election.  Here's where the inequality arrives.  They receive money based on how popular they are with the voter base in general, and then can receive additional donations (which are always skewed to particular parties due to the socioeconomic class status of their support base) from private citizens.  Thus, large popular parties are funded heavily, while small parties with specific agendas are not.  It skews the funding base heavily in favour of the two main parties (Liberals and Conservatives).  And since election results are heavily correlated to the amount of funding of a political movement, this gives those parties an edge in winning the seats - which spirals into a feedback loop where they again start with more resources for the next election, thus making it more likely to win again.

As I said, there are two fair ways to distribute political funding:
-Every party gets exactly the same amount to budget with, and no additional funds are permitted.
-Parties are entirely privately funded, thus forcing them to raise donations from their support base based on policy and preventing sheer popularity (especially regional popularity) from giving them a huge financial edge in election campaigns.

Democracy is supposed to encourage rule based on the majority, but it shouldn't handicap smaller parties from delivering their message.  That is essentially what our current system of funding is doing.  It surprises me that you fail to see that despite  criticizing private funding as being based entirely on the interests of a particular privileged group.  Our current public funding system is based entirely on the interests of a particular privileged group - the mainstream two parties which rake in the majority of the votes cast.

Quote from: tinfoil
this could just be a western perspective but i too believe that the senate no longer serves a valid purpose. the members aren't voted on and anyone could be a senator and hold a reltively powerfull position, not to mention being set for life. and all this for being friends with the PM or something similar. it's kind of silly.

Hold up.  The Western notion of an elected senate is a foolish one too.  The Senate was created as a regional balance to the demands of populated areas in order to ensure legislation was in the best interests of the nation as a whole.  It was supposed to be above the petty partisan politics of the Commons.  Electing Senators, fixed number or not, doesn't alleviate the problem because Senators will then be accountable to the short-sighted whims of particular regions rather than encouraged to think "big picture."  This is why the upper house in most parliamentary democracies is traditionally NOT elected.  Senators should be appointed - for fixed long terms rather than lifetime appointments perhaps, but appointed nonetheless.  I would actually favour appointment by Premiers in order to represent regional interests, with 2-4 Senators per province/territory for a total of 26, 39, or 52.  Three might be the best because then you get an odd number and can't have a split vote.

An elected Senate merely duplicates the Commons, and lord knows there's enough dysfunction there.  Eliminating the Senate doesn't solve the problem either, because it exists for a reason (even if its mandate has been severely corrupted over the years).
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Re: So something interesting is (finally?) happening in Canadian politics
..... I will never click "Spell Check" again... third post I lost because of that -.-

Well, in short:
Private funding is less fair than funding by votes, because both are dependant on popularity, while only the former is depended on wealth. Depended on wealth != fair

Funding by votes has also the effect that people can vote in order to fund, so the people who voted on the "loser" of an election didnt waste their votes.

[edit]
On a side note, dont let me derail you too much from the topic, i want to read more about Canadian politcs, it's interesting. :)