[Commander Zane]

I think a good concept would be to follow the style of the Whitestar Monitor, to have a ship about the size of a Cruiser, but to have the speed to pursue even the Iceni and the firepower to take down Corvettes without too much fighter cover, but with extra cover to attack Destroyers. Ideally because of the size it would consist nothing more than its killing weapon and some point-defense weapons.

[Scotty]

Yeah, but that limits its life expectancy to about 30 seconds as soon as a single fighter wing gets a run at it.  It wouldn't be cost effective, especially not against good pilots.

Whoa, idea.  What about just a slow, dedicated anticapship cruiser.  Leviathan speeds, with a ton of armor, and a couple really big guns.  Just throw point defense out the window except maybe a flak turret or two.

[Commander Zane]

Uh...didn't I just say that it would have fighter cover and its own point defense? Your idea's even worse because it only has one or two point defense turrets, I'd use more. With the speed of a Leviathan it wouldn't be able to HUNT ****, it would just be a killer and not a HUNTER-Killer.

[BengalTiger]

If the ship's a big flying plastic thermos it could be hard to detect. But filling most of it with radar absorbant material, thermal insulation and passive sensors might kill it's ability to fight properly (less armor probably, smaller ability to dissipate reactor heat would limit it's energy use in weapons due to reactor overheating, etc).

It would also kill the crew and destroy the reactors due to overheating.

Since we don't have a clue of what type of reactors they use in the FS era, the thermos would work if the reactor reaches a max temperature of say 30-40 degrees Celsius, while giving 1.21 jigawatts of power (let's assume that's enough to run a ship under normal conditions). Even a pretty thin heat shield around the reactor would be enough to keep the crew from running around in swimsuits, and the thickness of the external insulation could be calculated to keep 15-20 degrees in the internal (manned) space, while being frakkin' cold on the outer surface...

Beams involve shiploads of thermal energy, which could damage a conventional ship (like the Big C), so the thermos would boil in moments if it had any, so I agree with Kie99.

It might work if it had missiles, bombs, flak and Maxims as it's weapon systems, or with heat sinks that are unused in stealth mode and allow thermal energy out during combat (the ship is already detected, no need to stay cold anymore).

[Scotty]

Uh...didn't I just say that it would have fighter cover and its own point defense?

Yes, you did say that.  Fortunately, that was your idea, not mine.  I'm just having fun brainstorming about what a hypothetical ship could be.  Please don't tell me what my idea will and will not have, because it's my idea.

With the speed of a Leviathan it wouldn't be able to HUNT ****

Even with the speed of a Leviathan, if it jumps in (it's not like this thing is going to be hunting something by plodding up to it from hundreds of klicks away) close enough, it's going to take a while for a ship even as fast as the Iceni to pull out of range.

Your idea's even worse because it only has one or two point defense turrets

1)  see my first comment
2)  I can see a ship working with a couple big guns, then an AAAf, two blobs, and two flaks, even if it is cruiser size and usually has 50% more guns.  Perhaps I did err by saying "one or two" instead of "a couple"

[Kie99]

For Freespace ships, they could be able to radiate all that heat away while in subspace for all we know.

You have pulled this out of your arse.  There is no evidence that heat is radiated away into Subspace, and it is made blatantly obvious in High Noon that there is no infinite heat sink.

And even if it can't, you try finding a 1km hunk of metal in an entire star system, radiating heat or not.  You would need some very sensitive passive scanners to detect its emissions, and you would need to be looking right at the ship.  It would be like detecting a stealth bomber from halfway around the world.

It is very possible if it is an important system, as there will certainly be many sensor arrays.

[SpardaSon21]

For Freespace ships, they could be able to radiate all that heat away while in subspace for all we know.

You have pulled this out of your arse.  There is no evidence that heat is radiated away into Subspace, and it is made blatantly obvious in High Noon that there is no infinite heat sink.

And even if it can't, you try finding a 1km hunk of metal in an entire star system, radiating heat or not.  You would need some very sensitive passive scanners to detect its emissions, and you would need to be looking right at the ship.  It would be like detecting a stealth bomber from halfway around the world.

It is very possible if it is an important system, as there will certainly be many sensor arrays.

1.  We are all pulling things out of our arses here.  However, it seems that subspace, while different from realspace in many ways, wouldn't exactly be different from realspace in that it is both empty and cold.  You try going for a walk in subspace without a spacesuit and tell me how that works out for you.

2.  Space is big.  Hugely, mind-boggling big.  You may think its a long way to the chemist's down the street, but that's just peanuts to space.  Heat and light take time to travel.  It takes light 8 minutes to reach the Earth from the sun, meaning we would have no idea the Sun just went supernova until 8 minutes afterwards.  And heat is emitted in the infrared spectrum, meaning that it would take at least a minute to even detect a ship igniting thrusters, and then you would have to determine that it wasn't a friendly vessel igniting its thrusters which would take time, and then you would have to scramble fighters/cruisers to intercept, taking even more time.  It would be detected, it would just be almost impossible to intercept due to the amount of time it would take.  And space is three-dimensional, meaning the hunter-killer ship would be able to hide outside of the system's ecliptic.  You try seeding an entire solar system, in all three dimensions, with scanner platforms and tell me how cost-effective it is, hmmm?

[Droid803]

Well yes, you would have an idea where the ship was a few minutes ago, and in FreeSpace, that doesn't cut it.
Within a few minutes, the ship could have jumped to an infinite number of other locations in system. Given that it keeps jumping around like that, you could know its there, but you wouldn't know where it is, nor where it is going. Well, unless you track it through subspace, but given that you have never actually seen what it is before, I don't know if that is possible.

The principle that there can be no stealth in space is because without subspace, craft can only travel in essentially a linear fashion, allowing you to pretty much calculate where the ship will end up.

[kalnaren]

Yet several times in the freespace 2 campaign command calculated the "subspace vector" or whatever to get a probable location for the exit jump. They did this in the very first mission of the campaign.

[General Battuta]

Yeah, much as I don't want to get involved in this debate, several time in canon FS2 we hear 'we are tracking the vessel through subspace. We have vectored its course to your immediate vicinity.'

[Droid803]

Well, the Belisarius went from a jump node blockade. If I was flying for the block ade, I could just fly up and TAG it/
If it's something you've never seen before, you just know that there's something lurking around, would it be so easy to simply track it?

If it was so simple, why the the GTC Vigilant get smoked by the Rakshasa? Arguably, they didn't even KNOW it was coming but still...

[Dilmah G]

Well, the Belisarius went from a jump node blockade. If I was flying for the block ade, I could just fly up and TAG it/
If it's something you've never seen before, you just know that there's something lurking around, would it be so easy to simply track it?

If it was so simple, why the the GTC Vigilant get smoked by the Rakshasa? Arguably, they didn't even KNOW it was coming but still...

The point is they were tracking the Belisarious, it would be safe to assume Command has a way of using some kind of long-range sensors combined with calculations about the jump path of the ship to deduce where it's going to end up. After all, the GTVA aren't exactly strangers to subspace.

They didn't know it was coming, exactly, and I doubt the Vigilant carried subspace tracking technology while it was patrolling a relatively quiet system.   

[Scotty]

thread re-jack:

Back to hunter-killers.

[AlphaOne]

Well i cant figure out whi ppl want to complicate things such.

I mean what we were talking about was a ship that was fast i mean the fastest warship . It also has massive beam firepower so much so at to equal or even surpass (depending on th class) that of a destroyer. It would also have to be somewhat small have thick armour  but no thick as to make it sluggish. And be able to operate behind enemy lines  where it would take a position spring a trap or ambush enemy cap ship take them out fast so fast in fact that they would not be eble to mount any kind of defensive that would threaten it then get out fast.

Also such a ship doesnt have to be behind enemy lines to funtion. Such a ship would be at home even on the front lines. Stake out the targets or such then jump in fast fire one or 2 salvos of beams take out the enemy cap ship then high tale it out of there to a more safe location.

sure it would not be eble to do the job of a Deimos or a destroyer but then again it is not mean to do !

[kalnaren]

Well i cant figure out whi ppl want to complicate things such.

I mean what we were talking about was a ship that was fast i mean the fastest warship . It also has massive beam firepower so much so at to equal or even surpass (depending on th class) that of a destroyer. It would also have to be somewhat small have thick armour  but no thick as to make it sluggish. And be able to operate behind enemy lines  where it would take a position spring a trap or ambush enemy cap ship take them out fast so fast in fact that they would not be eble to mount any kind of defensive that would threaten it then get out fast.

Also such a ship doesnt have to be behind enemy lines to funtion. Such a ship would be at home even on the front lines. Stake out the targets or such then jump in fast fire one or 2 salvos of beams take out the enemy cap ship then high tale it out of there to a more safe location.

sure it would not be eble to do the job of a Deimos or a destroyer but then again it is not mean to do !

Why exactly did you start this discussion? Just wondering, because you keep shooting down every single thing anyone else says if it's not perfectly in line with your idea of a hunter-killer.

[AlphaOne]

Well for starters because ppl tend to get confused. Also i did not shoot down all the ideas just parts of them. Also i kinda liked the idea of a monitor ship fast deadly small agile .

Others such as the Leviathan sped hunter killer just go out the window in a sec. unless you plan on making the most expensive transport escort warship in existence.

I mean the guidelines are there for ppl to play with but when you start stripping the ship of all armor making it on par with a fenris and remove all of its peed making it on par with the Levi thats just wrong.


such a ship is suposed to be fast deadly self sufficient and be able to in behind enemy lines and take out warships.

There are the general guidelines. It is not supposed to be a destroyer not a carrier nor a transport escort ship.

[BengalTiger]

Fast, deadly, small, agile is more a PT boat.

Monitors are slow deadly small armored.

[Commander Zane]

Fast, deadly, small, agile is more a PT boat.

Monitors are slow deadly small armored.

Again, tell that to the Minbari.
But the Whitestar as I mentioned in a previous post would be the best candidate for a Hunter-Killer, as powerful and fast as it is it is also relatively fragile, so something along those lines can do exactly what we're generally looking for, as long as it has protection.

[AlphaOne]

Fast, deadly, small, agile is more a PT boat.

Monitors are slow deadly small armored.

Again, tell that to the Minbari.
But the Whitestar as I mentioned in a previous post would be the best candidate for a Hunter-Killer, as powerful and fast as it is it is also relatively fragile, so something along those lines can do exactly what we're generally looking for, as long as it has protection.

Yeah well its a great idea but hos fragile is too fragile ?? I mean we see the Whitestars taking hits that would cripple most other ship of its size and even ships several times its size.

Also something along the lines of the Whitestar would mean they would have to operate in pack's of 3 or more ! So how big should they be how well armed how fast etc.  Also there is the issue of the cost.  I remember Delen i believe stating that those things werent cheap in fact they were quite expensive even for the Minbari.


Man im even more confused then before...

[kalnaren]

Yeah well its a great idea but hos fragile is too fragile ?? I mean we see the Whitestars taking hits that would cripple most other ship of its size and even ships several times its size.

White Stars relied on speed and maneuverability to avoid being hit. Unfortunately that's kind of hard to do in FS, but even then they were more durable than any ship their size.

Also something along the lines of the Whitestar would mean they would have to operate in pack's of 3 or more ! So how big should they be how well armed how fast etc. 

See my previous post about wolfpacks. That's a classic, real-world example of how hunter-killers would actually operate.

Also there is the issue of the cost.  I remember Delen i believe stating that those things werent cheap in fact they were quite expensive even for the Minbari.

Yea, that's true. But hey, you pay for quality. Vorlon technology is expensive, and these things were better suited for fighting the Shadows than any other warship.