[AlphaOne]

Sath able to create its own node ?  Are you for real ?

also do you have any idea of the total fleetsize of the GTVA ? Having such a massive force set up in a blocade formation is...well fizzcaly impossible you could put a lot of them there ! I dont know perhaps 10 or 15 destroyers??

Dont know if anyone ever tried. However having such a massive force as a node blocade would well take out any shivan jugg the first shot they got ! You'd have what 3-40 beam canons opening fire on one target. I dont care if its shivan or otherwise nothing can withstand that much firepower.

[Scotty]

I can say exactly what I would have done.  I would have kicked the @$$ out of the NTF fast.  None of this "wait for the colossus to be deployed and THEN kill ships"  The two-front war really did not help.

[AlphaOne]

Agree nothing is worse then a multi front war without the adequate resources or the will to carry it out.

I mean from what we have seen the terrans have pretty much fought this war alone. Then with a tired and damaged fighting force + the vasudan side which was much better off a lot better they decide they wanna fight the shivans explore a nebula and terminate the NTF ? Oh come on get real.


Thats just a waste of resources and time ! sure they wanted etak so then beat it out of the guy responsible for it ! Develop it yourself . One way or the other im pretty sure the GTVI would of been able to "acquire" some ussefull information regarding the shivan com's device. Im talking about ETAK  not the big spinning thing

[StarSlayer]

Well truth be told if command was competent then A1 would end up being a bit player rather then savior of the GTVA.  In addition the way the story and tactics played out was probably more driven by what the engine could handle at the time but for the sake of hypothetical...

Asset changes:
-Build a purpose built Node Knacker based off a Meson technology and deploy it at important choke points.
-Focus on building some fighter bombers that can specialize in quickly taking out weapons and subsystems instead of just massive lumbering bombers.  Something similar to the Athena would suffice
-Possibly some purpose built carriers since fightercraft are one of the GTVA's strong points.  The Hecates were already weaker combatants then the Orion, might has well have doubled or tripled the fighter capacity on a cheaper hull

Tactical Doctrine changes
-Always deploy your forces in mixed battlegroups that can support each other.  Having your ships putt around by their lonesomes where they can get ambushed and snuffed is not wise
-Effectively employ your airwings.  Properly supported how long does it take a dozen Ursas, Bones, etc to completely snuff a destroyer?  Not long.  Proper use of your air wings means not having to throw your weaker capital assets at tough Shivan warships.  Even the mighty Sathanas is destroyer dog food if its front beams are eliminated.
-Fortify your nodes with, Mjolnir, Mines and as a last resort node knackers.

Stategic changes
-Recognizing that the wheels where going to fall off the bus instead of being giddy hubris filled wankers that they stopped the Shivans initial probes and that their Collie snuffed the big bad Sathanas.
-Taking preventative measures (node knackers) to cut off the shivan advance before they reach one of your major population centers would have been much less devastating


Realistically none of this would have necessarily have led to a different end gambit at stopping the Shivans then the one the GTVA used (80 Saths is 80 Saths).  But proper force deployments and recognizing the need to cut the Shivans off from your space might have lead to not losing Capella and an overall better attrition rate in your own forces.

[Scotty]

(even puts the Death Star to shame).

But not the Sun Crusher  .

[Bob-san]

My difference? Bombers are the solution to everything, except fighters. So instead of deploying my gigantic 2km long ship carrying over a hundred fighters and bombers, I'll deploy hundreds of fighters and bombers. Heck--arm the bombers with Cyclopse and let them go at it with a Sath. Doesn't matter if 90% of the pilots die--that's still only a few dozen people. Versus thousands dying on a Battleship, the losses are acceptable. Heck--if I was tasked with destroying the NTF, the easiest way to do that would be to destroy all their cap ships. Basically remove their ability to oppose the GTVA.

[General Battuta]

My difference? Bombers are the solution to everything, except fighters. So instead of deploying my gigantic 2km long ship carrying over a hundred fighters and bombers, I'll deploy hundreds of fighters and bombers. Heck--arm the bombers with Cyclopse and let them go at it with a Sath. Doesn't matter if 90% of the pilots die--that's still only a few dozen people. Versus thousands dying on a Battleship, the losses are acceptable. Heck--if I was tasked with destroying the NTF, the easiest way to do that would be to destroy all their cap ships. Basically remove their ability to oppose the GTVA.

You still have to haul them around, though.

And don't forget that a fighter pilot is a really big investment in terms of training time, resources, and morale compared to capital ship crew.

For that matter, can any number of Cyclops-wielding bombers kill a Sath? I thought it didn't have the right flag.

[Bob-san]

My difference? Bombers are the solution to everything, except fighters. So instead of deploying my gigantic 2km long ship carrying over a hundred fighters and bombers, I'll deploy hundreds of fighters and bombers. Heck--arm the bombers with Cyclopse and let them go at it with a Sath. Doesn't matter if 90% of the pilots die--that's still only a few dozen people. Versus thousands dying on a Battleship, the losses are acceptable. Heck--if I was tasked with destroying the NTF, the easiest way to do that would be to destroy all their cap ships. Basically remove their ability to oppose the GTVA.

You still have to haul them around, though.

And don't forget that a fighter pilot is a really big investment in terms of training time, resources, and morale compared to capital ship crew.

For that matter, can any number of Cyclops-wielding bombers kill a Sath? I thought it didn't have the right flag.

Yes, which is why you just use your destroyers for what they CAN do. They can defend installations and attack smaller ships, but if you want to hit a ship of equal or greater size, you should have a lot of more firepower than necessary.

Anyways--yeah, I don't see a reason why 30-40 ships with Cyclopse can't destroy a Sath. And if it's that much an issue, issue Helios. Or just disarm and disable a Sath and THEN bring the Big C or a few Orions against it.

And yes, pilots are a prescious few. But what takes longer and more effort to train? 2000 crew members including all officers or 100 pilots?

[Woolie Wool]

My difference? Bombers are the solution to everything, except fighters. So instead of deploying my gigantic 2km long ship carrying over a hundred fighters and bombers, I'll deploy hundreds of fighters and bombers. Heck--arm the bombers with Cyclopse and let them go at it with a Sath. Doesn't matter if 90% of the pilots die--that's still only a few dozen people. Versus thousands dying on a Battleship, the losses are acceptable. Heck--if I was tasked with destroying the NTF, the easiest way to do that would be to destroy all their cap ships. Basically remove their ability to oppose the GTVA.

How are you going to get these hundreds of short-range fighters into the theater? How are you going to refuel and rearm these fighters? Where will the pilots live and sleep? How will their fighters be repaired or replaced? Who will arrive to help when the pilots suffer from debilitating mental or physical injuries in the line of duty?

If your answer to that is flimsy dedicated carriers, then that raises the question of what you're going to do when the Shivans find them and blow them away. The Shivans move too quickly for the GTVA to count on a static front, and the GTVA does not have the resources to build massive quantities of corvettes as escorts, and that's why the GTVA has destroyers.

[nvsblmnc]

I've noticed that quite often people point out how quickly x number of bombers can kill a destroyer.  In my opinion that's because they're using too many. 

The weapons of FS2 are balanced for the relatively small numbers of ships that are in use at any one time - not ususally much more that a single wing.  If you're going to deploy more than 4 bombers at a time, then the weapons they carry need to be seriously toned down to compensate.  We see that demonstrated in the Shivan ship/weapon balance where they have larger numbers of ships, but weaker weapons per ship.

Same goes for all fighter weapons, really - we tend to up the numbers of ships per mission, but keep the firepower that was balanced for a handful of ships.

Just my opinion, though...

[eliex]

We see that demonstrated in the Shivan ship/weapon balance where they have larger numbers of ships, but weaker weapons per ship.

Actually the Nephilim and Shaitan have a really tiny loadout that only works with one bombing run only. As for the Seraphim, it is so slow and easy to hit that they die quickly but all Shivan bombers generally use the cyclops or the rebel bomb, which iirc is just a cyclops with no shockwave.

[BengalTiger]

I don't know that the GTVA could stop the Shivans. You have to stop AT LEAST 80 Saths and who knows how many Ravanas and Demons bigger ships.

Fixed.

Also the Orion is the most powerfull destroyer out there in a anti-cap ship role. It has the most powerfull broad side of ANY GTVA destroyer. It it ideal for blocading nodes.

The Big Hat has more wookie than the Big O, I've calculated that some time ago, and the Hat won by a few hundred HP/s in beams only. In a short range slugfest the Hat wins more thanks to fusion mortars and Flak which do more damage than the turrets the O has.

The Hat also wins in the HP department, having 35k points more.

[TrashMan]

You sure your calculations are correct?

If I pit a Orion against a Hattie, the Orion will win most of the time.

[NGTM-1R]

Is there just something wrong with you people, or are you knowingly massively overstating what Command is actually responsible for, or massively overestimating it, or what? I mean, new ship classes, mass deployment of technologies that are experimental. Hell, even my setup is probably asking too much of Command.

Because Command is a tactical commander. Probably no more than Captain in rank, if that. Command doesn't have control of the overall GTVA war effort. He doesn't even apparently have operational control of a single system, just the assets assigned for any particular operation. This is why I suspect Command doesn't even merit a Captain's rank: he rarely seems to have control over warships in your operations area, because he doesn't seem to give them orders very often. Command is just a fighter coordinator, not an admiral.

[Wobble73]

I think in this case people are treating "Command" as the chain of command and not the person barking the orders to you! In other words, Command and those above him, immediate superiors etc. Those who are in charge of the war effort!

[Snail]

also do you have any idea of the total fleetsize of the GTVA ? Having such a massive force set up in a blocade formation is...well fizzcaly impossible you could put a lot of them there ! I dont know perhaps 10 or 15 destroyers??

Dont know if anyone ever tried. However having such a massive force as a node blocade would well take out any shivan jugg the first shot they got ! You'd have what 3-40 beam canons opening fire on one target. I dont care if its shivan or otherwise nothing can withstand that much firepower.

True, even 80 Sath won't be able to withstand that many beam cannons through sheer force of armor alone. But Shivans aren't idiots; once they realize they're not getting through just sending in their Saths undefended they'll do something else. Once again you completely missed my point. You could have 28,000 Colossus class warships defending the same node, it's not going to stop them.

[Sololop]

When they destroyed the Knossos, couldn't they have done what they did to seal off Capella? Send a bomb INTO subspace then detonating?

[Jeff Vader]

When they destroyed the Knossos, couldn't they have done what they did to seal off Capella? Send a bomb INTO subspace then detonating?

Maybe, but at that time they thought that the Knossos was responsible for maintaining the jump node. Who would have thought that it could actually stabilize the node that much.

[SPECTRE87]

1# Hire Alpha 1 to train Chuck Norris
2# Buy Acme Super Space Suit
3# Let Chuck loose
4# Lawlz at Shivans

[nvsblmnc]

When they destroyed the Knossos, couldn't they have done what they did to seal off Capella? Send a bomb INTO subspace then detonating?

Maybe, but at that time they thought that the Knossos was responsible for maintaining the jump node. Who would have thought that it could actually stabilize the node that much.

I also recall the dialogue suggesting that the GTVA used all of their meson bombs in the Knossos demolition.