[Warlock]

Criminals having illegal weapons blows any reasonable gun control concepts out of the water.

But where do you think that criminals get these illegal weapons from?

Obviously from a law abiding citizen that owns a gun legally.

Wait......


No that's not right.

Seriously. Think about it a second man. Even if they outright make owning all firearms illegal, criminals can still get them. You think illegal drugs hit the streets fast and make a huge profit for criminals? Ban firearms and see how fast that same market turns around.

Idea: How about instead of more and more reasons to restrict firearms and make the general citizen think "Guns are bad and hurt people!" we ...oh I donno, ....educate folks about firearms safety?

Look at the number of children (including teens here) that get shot by finding daddy's gun in the closet hidden in a box like an old forgotten Christmas gift. They didn't know anything more than it's an awesome version of that bright orange plastic toy they have. (On average, yes I'm generallizing.)

I was taught about firearms since a very young age. I learned how to shoot before I was ten. I personally and legally owned several firearms, from 12 guage shotgun, .22LR pistol and rifle, to a few custom handmade CS Richmond replica blackpowder weapons by age 18. Then I was trained by the  military on even more advanced weapons.

Growing up I could literally toss a pingpong ball blindly about my home and hit no less than 5 firearms. Not once did I concider doing something stupid with them. Why? Because I knew better. I knew just how deadly they could be. I knew just how much trouble they could be.

I have this arguement with my wife whenever we discuss children. She was raised no where near a firearm in her life. I refuse to have a child, male or female, that I can't teach how to safely use a firearm and how to safely leave them the hell alone.

It's something that was dropped sometime in the past. Firearms used to be something everyone was taught about, now most are taught to fear them.

[Liberator]

Criminals having illegal weapons blows any reasonable gun control concepts out of the water.

But where do you think that criminals get these illegal weapons from?

Obviously from a law abiding citizen that owns a gun legally.

Wait......


No that's not right.

Seriously. Think about it a second man. Even if they outright make owning all firearms illegal, criminals can still get them. You think illegal drugs hit the streets fast and make a huge profit for criminals? Ban firearms and see how fast that same market turns around.

Idea: How about instead of more and more reasons to restrict firearms and make the general citizen think "Guns are bad and hurt people!" we ...oh I donno, ....educate folks about firearms safety?

Look at the number of children (including teens here) that get shot by finding daddy's gun in the closet hidden in a box like an old forgotten Christmas gift. They didn't know anything more than it's an awesome version of that bright orange plastic toy they have. (On average, yes I'm generallizing.)

I was taught about firearms since a very young age. I learned how to shoot before I was ten. I personally and legally owned several firearms, from 12 guage shotgun, .22LR pistol and rifle, to a few custom handmade CS Richmond replica blackpowder weapons by age 18. Then I was trained by the  military on even more advanced weapons.

Growing up I could literally toss a pingpong ball blindly about my home and hit no less than 5 firearms. Not once did I concider doing something stupid with them. Why? Because I knew better. I knew just how deadly they could be. I knew just how much trouble they could be.

I have this arguement with my wife whenever we discuss children. She was raised no where near a firearm in her life. I refuse to have a child, male or female, that I can't teach how to safely use a firearm and how to safely leave them the hell alone.

It's something that was dropped sometime in the past. Firearms used to be something everyone was taught about, now most are taught to fear them.

QFELT!

As with most issues that are so divisive, education is the answer.

[karajorma]

But where do you think that criminals get these illegal weapons from?

Obviously from a law abiding citizen that owns a gun legally.

Wait......


No that's not right.

Actually it is. Many of the guns come from theft of lawfully owned weapons.

Seriously. Think about it a second man. Even if they outright make owning all firearms illegal, criminals can still get them. You think illegal drugs hit the streets fast and make a huge profit for criminals? Ban firearms and see how fast that same market turns around.

Not a huge problem here in the UK. The money is still in drugs because only career criminals want illegal guns while there are lot of people who buy drugs but aren't career criminals.

Idea: How about instead of more and more reasons to restrict firearms and make the general citizen think "Guns are bad and hurt people!" we ...oh I donno, ....educate folks about firearms safety?

That's better that doing nothing if you're unwilling to have gun control laws. I don't think it's a solution in the slightest but it would definitely be an improvement on what you have now.

But I'm yet to see anyone do it in America. It's all very well asking for education but who's actually doing anything about it? Who's going to pay for it? Would you accept higher taxes in return for it? Or do you expect the average citizen to be the one to do it? Cause that's not going to work. The responsible citizens will do it and the irresponsible ones won't. Which is no damn change from the situation we have now.

[Inquisitor]

That sort of education should be institutionalized.

Unfortunately, that means (to me) more regulation (or rather, more consistent, which implies federal) on legal gun ownership.

I think safety and education should be the drivers for "gun control" the crime argument is a red herring for both sides.

So is the "guns don't kill people" line, pure bull****.

If more of the regulation debate was in the theme of:

Because I knew better. I knew just how deadly they could be. I knew just how much trouble they could be.

...this would be a much different debate.

Both the Liberal whackos and the NRA nutjobs go for the crime argument because it scares people. Turns what could be a sensible conversation into fear-mongering.

Asinine.

These are tools, they are not going away. The world sucks and there will be people and animals that want to kill you, destroy your land, hurt your family. There ARE reasons to own (and carry) weapons, and many of those reasons include people (including Americans) sucking.

We have license for cars, planes, trucks, massive, dangerous tools that if they are mis-used people get hurt and die. none of those are made for the express purpose of depriving life. Guns are made to kill. You should be qualified to operate it before you can exercise your "right" to carry it.

[Spicious]

Does anyone else find it disturbingly amusing that the people who want gun education are the very people who think the only form of sex ed that should be taught is abstinence?

[karajorma]

Well let's not assume that both groups of people are the same.

I will agree that there is going to be quite a large overlap between pro-gun and abstinence groups but there are plenty of otherwise fairly liberal democrats who own guns too. The whole of America has a hard on for guns.

That sort of education should be institutionalized.

Unfortunately, that means (to me) more regulation (or rather, more consistent, which implies federal) on legal gun ownership.

Which is the exact reason it won't happen. No one wants to pay for it.

I think safety and education should be the drivers for "gun control" the crime argument is a red herring for both sides.

While I feel that having safety and education about guns would probably help I doubt that it can ever be a solution. America will never get the gun deaths rate down to the level seen in other more restictive countries no matter how much they spend on education.

Both the Liberal whackos and the NRA nutjobs go for the crime argument because it scares people. Turns what could be a sensible conversation into fear-mongering.

Asinine.

These are tools, they are not going away. The world sucks and there will be people and animals that want to kill you, destroy your land, hurt your family. There ARE reasons to own (and carry) weapons, and many of those reasons include people (including Americans) sucking.

Hang on a sec, aren't you going right back to trying to justify gun ownership as a response to crime in that last statement? No one is talking about taking them away from the army, navy and air force so the only people you'd need a gun to defend yourself against are criminals or your own government (and saying that you need guns to defend yourself against your government becoming totalitarian is an even more asinine scare tactic than talking about crime).

We have license for cars, planes, trucks, massive, dangerous tools that if they are mis-used people get hurt and die. none of those are made for the express purpose of depriving life. Guns are made to kill. You should be qualified to operate it before you can exercise your "right" to carry it.

I 100% agree with that sentiment even if I  disagree over who should have that right.

[BengalTiger]

I just want to point this out: Snyder makes the comment that gun control laws are ineffectual in preventing crime, without addressing the part of the argument that gun control makes crime easier to solve. If guns are registered, the markings they leave on the shell will be more readily matched to the gun and the gun to the owner. How willing do you think people would be to shoot or kill someone if they knew the round could be matched back to the firearm?

That would require criminals to be able to own guns. In the US if you have a criminal record, you can't own a gun.

In Chicago, noone can register hanguns (which makes it theoretically impossible to have one). Guess what the main tool used for murders is in that city.

You are of course assuming that people will follow the same logic that we do, which in many cases is limited by our circumstances. People are not the same and can make decisions that seem logical to them but are illogical to others.

There goes the argument about criminals not shooting unarmed people, because it isn't logical for the anti-gun crowd.

....

The purpose of these assault rifles ...

...

edit: I should note that people actually aren't allowed to own full automatics if they weren't registered before a certain date in the 80s I think, though rifles that were originally designed as selective fire and are now only issued to the general public as semi automatic are easily converted to full after being legally sold to drug runners, gang bangers, freedom fighters etc.

Well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjM9fcEzSJ0

....educate folks about firearms safety?

That is a winner IMHO.

But aren't schools in the US too busy with sexual education?

P.S. Speaking of the Second Ammendment and stopping foreign invasions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IeEa8tqUkE

[Spicious]

But aren't schools in the US too busy with sexual education?

No, they're too busy collapsing due to lack of funding among other things.

[BengalTiger]

Lack of funding? 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States#Funding

According to a 2005 report from the OECD, the United States is tied for first place with Switzerland when it comes to annual spending per student on its public schools, with each of those two countries spending more than $11,000 (in U.S. currency).

[Snail]

2005 - A lot can change in 4 years.

[Inquisitor]

Hang on a sec, aren't you going right back to trying to justify gun ownership as a response to crime in that last statement?

Nope, it may be *A* reason, its far from *THE* reason.

And I meant to post more, but work got in the way, so it may have been a half finished thought

If you are trained, you may be able to prevent or mitigate individual crimes. If you are untrained, you are much more likely to contribute negatively to any one critical incident. Not to mention the whole "animals" caveat

[karajorma]

Maybe. Maybe not. Most of the crazies who go on shooting rampages were also trained. Not to mention I shudder to think what would start happening to the crime statistics if the criminals were also trained.

[Warlock]

Does anyone else find it disturbingly amusing that the people who want gun education are the very people who think the only form of sex ed that should be taught is abstinence?

Well I donno about the rest of the ppl that agreed about gun education but I'm all for teaching kids everything about sex. I'm all for sex before marriage, won't buy a car without a test drive, why marry for life without one? In fact my wife and I dated for a year, then lived together for 2 years before we married. We both agreed to try it out first sort of speak.

Oh and as for who'll pay for the education, ..... well start simple.

To get a Driver's License you must take a training course. Now granted this is typically a part of public education, how ever ppl wanting it before their school's set time can pay for it.

Do the same with guns. You already need to register to buy one, why not simply have a training session, issued card, and a mandatory renewal every few years? Set a reasonable price and bang there you go.

Like i said. Start simple. We can't and won't fix the problem in a month, or even a year, and doubtfully in a decade.

[Liberator]

But aren't schools in the US too busy with sexual education?

No, they're too busy collapsing due to lack of funding among other things.

Lack of funding? 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States#Funding

According to a 2005 report from the OECD, the United States is tied for first place with Switzerland when it comes to annual spending per student on its public schools, with each of those two countries spending more than $11,000 (in U.S. currency).

2005 - A lot can change in 4 years.

But it hasn't.  The problem with education spending in the USA is that it's not spent correctly.  The statistic is $11,000 per student, but from what I can tell, less than a quarter of that actually reaches a level to where it would actually benefit the students.  The vast majority of the money, from what I can tell, is spent at the administrative level for administrative things.  In most districts the teachers are forced to resort to purchasing materials for they're use with they're own meager pay.  For instance, here in Alabama, we have 67 counties most with between 1 and 3 cities with more than 5000 people living in them.  But, we have somewhere like 110 separate school districts who are all taking monies from the general fund and are completely and totally independent from each other.

In truth, it's like pretty much everything else that is run by the government, there's mishandling and corruption at every level so the people the program is supposed to benefit never really see any benefit, but the government can point and say "We're trying, we're helping you!" and thus get reelected ad infinitum.

Apologies, had to get that straight.  We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument.   

[swashmebuckle]

Well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjM9fcEzSJ0

Ah, I've been lead astray by the sensationalist media again.  Must have been miscommunicated somewhere in the recent batch of stories about smuggling US arms into Mexico (or I just dreamed it or something), but I will further amend to my previous post that the number of fully automatic rifles on the street is definitely not a large percentage of total firearms.  Though everyone in Die Hard has one so I dunno where this dude is getting his facts from.  It's probably cause Die Hard was from the 80s.  Anyway, that's good that most of the rifles in the hands of criminals are merely semi automatic, but sadly all those people they killed are still just as dead.

[Inquisitor]

Not to mention I shudder to think what would start happening to the crime statistics if the criminals were also trained.

Hardly a reasoned response

No room for the possibility that a world can exists with weapons?

[Warlock]

Yea have to love that rational process eh? Guns = Bad must remove all guns. 

Good thing the 2nd Amendment doesn't grant us Freedom to bear arms, it only protects that freedom we always have.

Though the true thing to fear: Taxes on ammo and firearms.

[BengalTiger]

Ah, I've been lead astray by the sensationalist media again.  Must have been miscommunicated somewhere in the recent batch of stories about smuggling US arms into Mexico (or I just dreamed it or something), but I will further amend to my previous post that the number of fully automatic rifles on the street is definitely not a large percentage of total firearms.  Though everyone in Die Hard has one so I dunno where this dude is getting his facts from.  It's probably cause Die Hard was from the 80s.  Anyway, that's good that most of the rifles in the hands of criminals are merely semi automatic, but sadly all those people they killed are still just as dead.

I've read a couple stories about that lately, while I don't remember the exact numbers, it goes more/less like this:

There were 10 000 illegal firearms confiscated by Mexican cops. Of these, 3000 were traceable, and 2700 were traced into the USA. The media made the news look like:

Of 3000 traced illegal weapons in Mexico, 2700 came from the US, which makes 90% of their guns coming from us (I've also heard that mainstream US media never said much about the untraceable guns, making it sound like the US being responsible for Mexican gangs having guns).

Now if anyone wants an interesting story, I could try to find some stuff about Mexico, where drug lords use heavy machineguns, grenades and even RPG's in their battles against cops and other drug lords.

As for Hollywood and Facts- can anyone find me that MiG-28 Tom Cruise shot down in Top Gun?

[Janos]

As for Hollywood and Facts- can anyone find me that MiG-28 Tom Cruise shot down in Top Gun?[/color]

Northrop F-5s, nothing more.

[General Battuta]

Ah, I've been lead astray by the sensationalist media again.  Must have been miscommunicated somewhere in the recent batch of stories about smuggling US arms into Mexico (or I just dreamed it or something), but I will further amend to my previous post that the number of fully automatic rifles on the street is definitely not a large percentage of total firearms.  Though everyone in Die Hard has one so I dunno where this dude is getting his facts from.  It's probably cause Die Hard was from the 80s.  Anyway, that's good that most of the rifles in the hands of criminals are merely semi automatic, but sadly all those people they killed are still just as dead.

I've read a couple stories about that lately, while I don't remember the exact numbers, it goes more/less like this:

There were 10 000 illegal firearms confiscated by Mexican cops. Of these, 3000 were traceable, and 2700 were traced into the USA. The media made the news look like:

Of 3000 traced illegal weapons in Mexico, 2700 came from the US, which makes 90% of their guns coming from us (I've also heard that mainstream US media never said much about the untraceable guns, making it sound like the US being responsible for Mexican gangs having guns).

Now if anyone wants an interesting story, I could try to find some stuff about Mexico, where drug lords use heavy machineguns, grenades and even RPG's in their battles against cops and other drug lords.

As for Hollywood and Facts- can anyone find me that MiG-28 Tom Cruise shot down in Top Gun?

The Mexican cops in all likelihood sell a lot of the untraceable weapons they confiscate.