[karajorma]

Not to mention I shudder to think what would start happening to the crime statistics if the criminals were also trained.

Hardly a reasoned response

Seriously though, you think that education in firearms for children (which would include criminals after all) wouldn't result in better informed, better trained criminals?

[Snail]

I like how the whole of Singapore's military is basically made up of teenagers driving tanks...

[Inquisitor]

Seriously though, you think that education in firearms for children (which would include criminals after all) wouldn't result in better informed, better trained criminals

Because if its a requirement of licensing, the criminals will not bother to license themselves, much like today

That whole "if you criminalize guns, only criminals will have them" argument is probably the only NRA platform I agree with in the current rhetoric.

[Janos]

The idea that the armed populace is a polite populace only works if people actually were rational actors.

Turns out that they aren't and can do impulsive and destructive things even without firearms. The idea that more firearms could somehow prevent human beings from being illogical jackassess who can quickly resort to violence if pressed enough is about as realistic as the idea that Gandalf the Grey is in your room, teaching you how to shoot naked phallic magic missiles.

it's a imaginary response to a real counterargument and, as such, is nothing more than cheap rhetorics.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

I like how the whole of Singapore's military is basically made up of teenagers driving tanks...

That bad?

[karajorma]

"if you criminalize guns, only a few criminals will have them"

*Points at the UK*

[Warlock]

Ban guns: Crime committed with guns goes down somewhat.

Sadly though Crime with knives, bats, lawn mowers, cattle prods, migets, and just about anything else shot through the roof.

Really, even IF you took all the bad guns away from everyone, even the bad men, they'll only find another way to kill people.

Instead of shooting rampage at the office, you get wacko in car filled with gas can's running into the office at 75mph.

Crazed teen jerks wheel from bus driver and runs bus full of kids off bridge.

Knee-jerk reactions won't solve it all.

and just because something works or doesn't work in the UK, China, Russia, whereever doesn't mean it'll have the same effect in the US. Or any other country for that matter. Different cultures tend to react differently to different stimuli.

[General Battuta]

Ban guns: Crime committed with guns goes down somewhat.

Sadly though Crime with knives, bats, lawn mowers, cattle prods, migets, and just about anything else shot through the roof.

Really, even IF you took all the bad guns away from everyone, even the bad men, they'll only find another way to kill people.

Instead of shooting rampage at the office, you get wacko in car filled with gas can's running into the office at 75mph.

Crazed teen jerks wheel from bus driver and runs bus full of kids off bridge.

Knee-jerk reactions won't solve it all.

and just because something works or doesn't work in the UK, China, Russia, whereever doesn't mean it'll have the same effect in the US. Or any other country for that matter. Different cultures tend to react differently to different stimuli.

*sigh* Statistics to prove your hypothesis about a complicated issue best left to social science?

[karajorma]

Ban guns: Crime committed with guns goes down somewhat.

Sadly though Crime with knives, bats, lawn mowers, cattle prods, migets, and just about anything else shot through the roof.

Got any proof of that? Cause the UK is still lower than the US on homicides per 100,000 people. You want to say that America is that way simply because it has more crazy and violent people than the UK, fine. But surely in that case giving them easy access to guns is not a good idea.

and just because something works or doesn't work in the UK, China, Russia, whereever doesn't mean it'll have the same effect in the US. Or any other country for that matter. Different cultures tend to react differently to different stimuli.

True, but as I said in my first post, America isn't willing to change anything else either. And furthermore there have been lots of people calling for increased gun ownership and increased use of carry concealed permits in order to cut crime (in fact that's what the original post was about). Which is just as open to being a knee-jerk reaction as anything I've said.

[Nuclear1]

Instead of shooting rampage at the office, you get wacko in car filled with gas can's running into the office at 75mph.

So, restricting guns will turn a Columbine into an Oklahoma City?

[Warlock]

So you all agree that violent homicedes didn't become a problem until after the firearm was invented?  Odd.

And no I have no proof nor will I waste my time It's a debate/discussion.....convincing any of you is pointless I'm merely enjoying the thread. Besides, we haven't banned any firearms outright so how could I possibly test this? Rather difficult without a proper test subject to via against the control subjects

[Snail]

So you all agree that violent homicedes didn't become a problem until after the firearm was invented?  Odd.

[Warlock]

[

and just because something works or doesn't work in the UK, China, Russia, whereever doesn't mean it'll have the same effect in the US. Or any other country for that matter. Different cultures tend to react differently to different stimuli.

True, but as I said in my first post, America isn't willing to change anything else either. And furthermore there have been lots of people calling for increased gun ownership and increased use of carry concealed permits in order to cut crime (in fact that's what the original post was about). Which is just as open to being a knee-jerk reaction as anything I've said.

True, though I'm all for everyone's right to own and conceal carry (as long as they go through the proper channels) I'm not jumping up and down saying it'll fix anything or everyone needs to do it.


Though I will admit I feel if the average criminal had to wonder about his target having a concealed firearm, there's a better chance of them moving on to something else.

[Nuclear1]

You can use knives to slice bread and spread butter.

You can use axes to cut down trees.

You play golf with clubs.

You drive a car to get places.

You fuel your car with gasoline.

You use a gun for...what, cleaning dog crap off the floor?

Guns were invented for the sole purpose of killing, be it hunting or in war or crime.  Knives, axes, clubs, cars, and gasoline can be used for that purpose, but serve a valuable function for society outside of murder.

You can't possibly compare violent crime before the advent of tools specifically designed for killing and after.  

[Warlock]

   Point set miss ?

I'm comparing man's desire to kill to man will only kill if he has a gun.

Just because you take away firearms does not mean people will not be murdered, or robbed, etc.

[General Battuta]

  Point set miss ?

I'm comparing man's desire to kill to man will only kill if he has a gun.

Just because you take away firearms does not mean people will not be murdered, or robbed, etc.

It certainly makes it easier, which might increase the rates. Men, for example, have higher rates of successful suicide than women because they're more likely to use guns, even though women attempt suicide more often.

[Warlock]

Well that arguement can also be made as :

Men mostly are serious about suicide and thus use a firearm to fullfill it, while on average most women are in trouble and seeking help (attention, what have you...you're call to pick) and thus use other less direct means.

Just like the whole issue of cutting a wrist across vs running down the veins from elbow to wrist. Or walk infront of a semitruck for that matter. 

Then again I just likely knew way too many drama crazied people in school and it left me a bit jaded.  *shrug*

But ease of the killing aside, it's still the person committing the crime that does the act, the tool or choice is just that....merely a tool.

While I'll agree a gun may make it "easier" to decide to kill your neighbor,....I'd argue that if the punishment's for the act were much more strict and more final....you'd have less regardless of the tool. Sadly to some 25 years less good behavior is a badge of frakking honor not a punishment.

[Nuclear1]

I just hate the argument of "well, you ban guns, we're still going to find ways to kill people." What you're saying is that a knife or a golf club is just as effective a weapon as a firearm, when, truly, they're not in the least bit the same.

Guns are so attractive as weapons because they're designed to do just that, and as a result they're quick, easier, and more effective.  Suicides by firearm are preferred because its fairly instant and painless, compared with bleeding to death after slitting wrists or slowly suffocating from hanging.  Murder by firearm is easier because it's a matter of point-and-shoot, not charging up to someone and trying to stab them where they can defend themselves or trying to set them on fire.

You take away the things which make murder and suicide easy and accessible, then you make some people rethink doing it in the first place.  I can guarantee you, if I was going to kill myself, I wouldn't want to A) see it or B) feel it. 

[Vrets]

I was just reading the Seattle Times. Some ugly guy in the Graham area shot five of his ugly children and then shot himself in the face. The next day, a survivalist ambushed and murdered three of our police officers with an AK47.

The lesson here is that print journalism deserves to die.

GUNS FOREVER!

Seriously though, you think that education in firearms for children (which would include criminals after all) wouldn't result in better informed, better trained criminals

Moron. The trick is to educate the people before they become criminals.

[Scotty]

Guns are so attractive as weapons because they're designed to do just that

And knives, or any kind of blades, aren't?    The entire reason for the existence of knives was to make hunting more efficient, as well as making it easier to dismember the animal carcass.

if I was going to kill myself, I wouldn't want to A) see it or B) feel it.  

Then poison yourself.  Without firearms, just as many people would kill themselves.  If you were going to kill yourself, you probably A) wouldn't care if you saw it or B) wouldn't care if you felt it.

What you're saying is that a knife or a golf club is just as effective a weapon as a firearm, when, truly, they're not in the least bit the same.

They don't have to be the same to be just as effective.  Dead is dead.

Murder by firearm is easier because it's a matter of point-and-shoot

By the same logic, so is defense by firearm, which is what I've been arguing for the whole time.

Moron. The trick is to educate the people before they become criminals.

No need to name call.  But amusing nonetheless.