[High Max]

.

[Goober5000]

One good seemingly original idea was in the campaign FoW CoTS when you flew into a Pirate asteroid base. It had a subsystem called "door" and you blew it open. You flew in it and destroyed a generator. Prior to that, that idea has only been used in the Cairo Vasudan installation as far as I know, but without the door subsystem.

Have you played Cardinal Spear?

[High Max]

.

[Commander Zane]

Uh...
Cardinal Spear is that FS1 campaign that had the Karnak installation (Which has doors by the way).

[Mobius]

You're probably refering to the Karnak. The Cairo is completely different.

[High Max]

.

[Commander Zane]

You're probably refering to the Karnak. The Cairo is completely different.

Right, dur. I never remember the installation names that well though I would've been able to describe it correctly.

[Droid803]

The Old Karnak didn't have doors IIRC, but the new, HTL, one does

Anyhow, after reading some other comments, I think the key to using the Ravana isn't just to not have it use its main beams, but to present it properly. It's the framework surrounding the usage of the Ravana that is cliché - there aren't enough Shivan destroyer models around to really avoid using the Ravana that way (nor can the Ravana be used effectively in any other way, much - I still don't think it's a good idea for a Ravana to play anti-fighter role, as it's going to wind up with its beams disabled, and when it gets attacked by say, a cruiser even, it's pretty ****ed. Stupid idea, if you ask me).

As long as there's more to do than just "Destroy front beams, then proceed to ignore.", or if the atmosphere is right for it, I think it's OK. It's the dryness of the mission design that really hurts it, not the role. The Ravana's role is pretty dead set. It's built for offensive beam strikes, and that's all it can do.

[Commander Zane]

It still had door subsystems.

[Dilmah G]

IMO you could keep the "ZOMG! RAVANA!!!!!!!! RUUUUUN! Oh and Alpha 1.....we'll leave you with the beam cannons," use of the Ravana, just make it harder than select Trebs and pop the trigger a few times. Have the escort fighters actually do something or assign a wing of Aeshma's (something that won't prevent the player from completing his objectives, but harass him as he tries to complete them) to attack Alpha 1 specifically.

I remember doing something similar in a mission I made. Having the Ravana jumping in from the node as the player's convoy makes its way towards it. The Ravana obliterates the lead ship, so Command deploys another destroyer to take its place and leaves the remainder of the convoy to deal with it in the meantime. The Ravana's far enough away to lob fighters and bombers at the convoy until Alpha 1 gets in range, but the area is so full of Shivan ships I had to give the player an escort to make it possible. And once one of the cannons is down the Ravana deploys a wing of fighters (Astaroths) to intercept the player.

The player still has to destroy the cannons, except it's made considerably harder. And there are no Trebs in the load-out screen.

[Mobius]

Uhm...are you sure about that? Modifying the concept for the sole purpose of making it harder could have the opposite effect. I don't know if storming the incoming player with escort fighters would be a good idea...

Ordering one or more Shivan cruisers to move near the beam cannons(and provide anti-spacecraft coverage) could be a nice idea, though.

About the Trebuchet missiles - yeah, removing them from the player's loadout would also be a good idea. The removal has to be plausible, anyway...if the player has been using Trebuchets since the first mission of the campaign you can't remove them only when their usage would make things easier.

[Krelus]

Uhm...are you sure about that? Modifying the concept for the sole purpose of making it harder could have the opposite effect. I don't know if storming the incoming player with escort fighters would be a good idea...

Ordering one or more Shivan cruisers to move near the beam cannons(and provide anti-spacecraft coverage) could be a nice idea, though.

About the Trebuchet missiles - yeah, removing them from the player's loadout would also be a good idea. The removal has to be plausible, anyway...if the player has been using Trebuchets since the first mission of the campaign you can't remove them only when their usage would make things easier.

As far as I'm concerned, you don't need a reason to remove a weapon from the loadout. I remember the first 70th Blue Lions mission in retail, Petrarch goes on about how you have the best equipment priority of the ship. Then you get to the loudout screen and find that, of all things, there aren't any Harpoons in sight. That's pretty rediculous, but it didn't really bother me.

[Mobius]

Well I believe there should be a reason or the FREDder would play the role of the b*****d designer. Removing or adding new equipment to the pool without a valid reason/explanation is not a good idea.

If a FREDder doesn't want the player to use Trebuchet missiles against the Ravana's beams, he could:

1) Make sure that the player has to deplete his Trebuchet reserves and prevent him from rearming;

2) Setting the mission as a scramble one and choose carefully the loadout;

3) Force the player to find a good balance between Trebuchets and other weapons to win. If you know you're going to face several Dragons and/or Maras at close range, you're not supposed to arm all of your secondary banks with Trebuchets;

...and many other things, I suppose.

[Lucika]

Another idea:
A Ravana fleet as the one was in Hellfire.

[Mobius]

But...that'd be weird...

[Lucika]

But...that'd be weird...

Yes, but definitely original.

[Mobius]

Original, but far from being plausible. You need a damn good reason to mass such a high number of destroyers.

[Commander Zane]

About the Trebuchet missiles - yeah, removing them from the player's loadout would also be a good idea. The removal has to be plausible, anyway...if the player has been using Trebuchets since the first mission of the campaign you can't remove them only when their usage would make things easier.

Doesn't it say the Trebuchet is a special issue missile? I wouldn't necessarily give the player access to them every single mission. Plus they might not be in such high stock to where that could be done.

What about the long-ass escort missions where you always seem to end up farther away in front of the entire convoy, and then the Ravana jumps in with its back facing you and its front facing the suddenly defenseless convoy?
Not even the Trebs will do a lick of good.

[Lucika]

Original, but far from being plausible. You need a damn good reason to mass such a high number of destroyers.

For instance, the GTVA has the Independence on the field?

[Mobius]

Doesn't it say the Trebuchet is a special issue missile? I wouldn't necessarily give the player access to them every single mission. Plus they might not be in such high stock to where that could be done.

What I said is that it's incredibly weird to remove the Trebuchet from the player's loadout in one mission, only. There should be a damn good reason, like "The Shivans destroyed the freighter(s) carrying ammo"...

For instance, the GTVA has the Independence on the field?

Eh?