Author Topic: Only 53%  (Read 44684 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
No offence to the Mayans, but what would they know about the end of the universe, or even the end of the world?

The 2012 prophecies make me laugh, it's like saying that your car will explode when the mileometer clocks over from 99999 to 00000.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
If it's so easy to see  and so more probable that God doesn't exist, then there wouldn't be nearly enough believers...especially among men of science.

And if it was so easy to see God exists there wouldn't be any atheists.


I didn't say it was easy anyway. It takes a great deal of effort to be an atheist (unless you simply pay lip service and haven't actually thought about the idea any). To be an atheist requires making an effort to understand why there doesn't need to be an meaning to the universe. That's pretty hard cause humans have always tended to assign meaning to things, even when there wasn't one.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 05:47:09 pm by karajorma »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
No offence to the Mayans, but what would they know about the end of the universe, or even the end of the world?

The 2012 prophecies make me laugh, it's like saying that your car will explode when the mileometer clocks over from 99999 to 00000.
My personal theory about that is that the Mayan priests set that date as a cutoff point simply because it was far enough away so they wouldn't have to deal with it, yet close enough to hang it over peoples' heads like a sword of Damocles.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
If it's so easy to see  and so more probable that God doesn't exist, then there wouldn't be nearly enough believers...especially among men of science.

And if it was so easy to see God exists there wouldn't be any atheists.


I didn't say it was easy anyway. It takes a great deal of effort to be an atheist (unless you simply pay lip service and haven't actually thought about the idea any).

Most Atheists are really agnostics anyway, it's not that they don't believe in any forces beyond our understanding, simply that the organised forms of religion are an attempt to claim that these people understand God and His motives.

Kind of funny how that changes though, isn't it? One minute God moves in mysterious ways, the next the only true path people can take is the one pointed out by someone who has a hotline to God. Cake and Eat it situation.

No offence to the Mayans, but what would they know about the end of the universe, or even the end of the world?

The 2012 prophecies make me laugh, it's like saying that your car will explode when the mileometer clocks over from 99999 to 00000.
My personal theory about that is that the Mayan priests set that date as a cutoff point simply because it was far enough away so they wouldn't have to deal with it, yet close enough to hang it over peoples' heads like a sword of Damocles.

Exactly, it's kind of like saying that the world will end in the year 1x10*26 because we've run out of Roman Numerals. It's not only silly, it's actually quite arrogant considering we've relegated their entire pantheon to fiction etc, to pull out one tiny aspect of a society and claim that this one aspect of a civilisation is correct, because it's convenient to Doomsayers for it to be so.

Edit: I mean, seriously, these people were into Sacrifice in a big way, even to the point of mutilating their genitalia to honour their Gods, funny how we keep the Doomsday prophecies, but don't re-adopt the idea of building pyramids with channels specially designed to carry blood down from the sacrifices at the top of it...
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 05:50:13 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
Only it's not like a regular calender, it just stops and there's not another one to replace it.

except not really. 12/21/2012 marks the end of a long count, it's happened 12 other times in the calendar, and the next two times it's going to happen is 3/26/2407, and 6/28/2801. there is nothing to debate here, the statement is simply not factual. that's all there is to it, it's just basicaly a quazi-melinial newyear
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
I'm going to start insisting that anyone who claims the world will end on that date sign a contract turning over all their worldly goods to me on 1st January 2013.

Let's see how committed they are to this theory that the world will end in 2012.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Scotty

  • 1.21 gigawatts!
  • 211
  • Guns, guns, guns.
Can anyone else get in on that?  I'm itching to be on the winning side of an argument on this site for once :D.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Maybe I should start a charity then? The "Sign here or shut the **** up about the Mayan calander" foundation. :D

Most Atheists are really agnostics anyway

Depends, once again, on your definition of the word. I personally do not like the definition of agnostics as a subset of atheists. It's rather confusing and contradictory of the word itself. Especially since it is possible to be agnostic and theistic at the same time.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Well, that's more a game played with the English language than anything else, I think theistic agnostics are just people who don't want to take any chances whatsoever ;)

 

Offline MP-Ryan

  • Makes General Discussion Make Sense.
  • Global Moderator
  • 210
  • Keyboard > Pen > Sword
Yep. There are a lot of different ways to distinguish it. But bear in mind that strong atheists when saying "There is no God" are mostly saying "On the balance of all evidence and probability, there is no God"

And it's still very wrong.

If it's so easy to see  and so more probable that God doesn't exist, then there wouldn't be nearly enough believers...especially among men of science.

People, even very intelligent people, believe in all kinds of ridiculous things without any evidence whatsoever because they simply want to.  That doesn't give any of those things any kind of credence.

For example, I know full well that dogs do not smile and it is simply a matter of the way their facial muscles operate in conjunction with teeth in an open mouth that approximates what the human brain is hard-wired to interpret as a smile.  But that doesn't stop me from interpreting that expression on a dog as meaning they're "happy."

Historically, more people in the history of humanity have NOT believed in a single God than have.  Where does that land your theory?

Human beings are inquistive and naturally driven to provide explanations for things.  In the absence of a logical reason for something, they invoke reasons beyond their comprehension because it solves the problem.  Why is the sky blue?  Because a god made it blue.  Who knows why, gods work in mysterious ways.  Next question.

Religion is a way of explaining the world around us in the absence of specific knowledge.  Just because it's a popular explanation doesn't make it right... or do you still think the Earth is flat and the center of the universe too?
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Well, that's more a game played with the English language than anything else, I think theistic agnostics are just people who don't want to take any chances whatsoever ;)

Nonetheless it doesn't really serve the language well to lump atheists and agnostics in the same group and use atheists as the term to describe that group. Because by doing that you simply make it harder to describe someone who doesn't believe in gods.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Scotty

  • 1.21 gigawatts!
  • 211
  • Guns, guns, guns.
Quote
Just because it's a popular explanation doesn't make it right... or do you still think the Earth is flat and the center of the universe too?

Maybe the universe, can't really disprove that one :lol:.  Seriously, no.  

On a side note, I can still be religious and not be idiotically superstitious.  That's for people who don't like to think.

 

Offline Kosh

  • A year behind what's funny
  • 210
I thought about that but for one, the bible was written by man, and for two, "created in his own image" can be interpreted in different ways and might mean "what God's imagination came up with" like if I made a computer in my own image, it could mean how I wanted to create it, and not "modeled after how God looks", and even if man is supposed to be modeled after how God looks, it doesn't mean God is a "he" since likeness doesn't mean created exactly how God looks. Likeness means similar, not exact.
Copy pasted from:
http://www.dreadgazebo.com/gunporn/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/svdb_smaller.jpg

Which says that's NIV translation so it should be fairly acurate to the original greek/hebrew/source.

If you are the proponent of the theory that God is actually an XT race who came here and engineered us from existing life than that could mean they made us look like them.  Remember, 2012 is when They(the race that built/showed how to build megalithic architecture) come back.

You believe this stuff?
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

  • The Academic
  • 211
  • Bad command or file name
All atheist means is that the person doesn't believe in a god or gods. It's as simple as that.

Lack of belief is not quite the same as belief of lack. So no, it's not as simple as that.

Quote
About the Earth being flat idea: Some scientists say that what we see as objects being round is just an illusion caused by the space/time distortions from gravity. You know the term "flat universe"? I think flat universe is what is meant by them saying planets being round is an illusion. So I guess some people could still believe it is flat.

Aaaargh.

No.

...just, no. :ick:

Universe being "flat" is a sentence that manages to marvellously confuse everyone who doesn't know what it means.

Flat space is simply another term for euclidian space. That is because euclidian space is in the famous "rubber sheet analogy" represented by flat sheet. Euclidian space means simply that its geometry is euclidian - for example, straight lines that are tangential at some point of space will never cross each other at any point of euclidian space. The dimensions of euclidian or "flat" space are completely perpendicular and regular, without any anomalies.

To say that "universe is flat" means that within observation threshold the overall, average geometry of the universe appears to be euclidian.

Now, what objects with gravitational mass do to space is that they locally non-euclidize it. They curve space-time slightly, resulting in a situation that we do not in fact live in completely euclidian space - but close enough that it doesn't matter. Good example of stuff that happens in non-euclidian curved space is that the sum of the angles of a triangle might be something else than 180 degrees, and you might be able to put a bit more than one litre of liquid in a 10x10x10 cm cube than you could in euclidian space. Practically though you would need a black hole or at least a neutron star for this kind of effects, but that's what curvature of space-time does (in a nutshell, it's a bit more complex issue).



Quote
Also, the sky is blue because of the way the gases interact with the light from the sun and therefore, the atmosphere reflects more blue and ultra-violent light and absorbs more of the red light and probably infrared too. So if it reflected more red and infrared light and absorbed more blue and ultra-violet light, the sky would appear a beautiful red.

Yes.

That is a better explanation than "Wizard Did It", because it actually offers an explanation, not an assertion (and it is experimentally verifiable hypothesis). Which is why religious scientists don't mix their faith with their job. I don't personally give a damn what anyone believes to be behind the world that we can observe. Scientists with some degree of faith in any religion generally don't either. It's when arguments based on dogmas and religious authorities start to affect how other people should live their lives that starts to annoy me. Just like any other enforcing of random opinions would annoy me.

"A lot of criminals are children of unmarried mothers; therefore getting married should be required for having children at all."
"This and that is wrong because it harms our children, if you disagree you want harm done to the children."
"This economy model is correct because it benefits all people except those it screws over and kills. If you want to help those who can't help themselves you are doing harm to the society as a whole."
"There's no need for economy; we provide you with all we think you need. When everyone does their part, everyone prospers."

An observant reader might notice which economical ideologies are caricatured there. You might also notice that I do not approve with either extremities.

And when this kind of opinions are stuffed in my face, when the logical errors of argumentation are so glaringly obvious that it would take a blind, deaf and mute man to agree with them*, it becomes very annoying, especially when counter-arguments are usually fruitless because they are against the opinions of the other side, so they are obviously wrong, and obviously the logic leading to them is flawed as well - and when that is determined, no analysis of the actual logic used in the counter-argumentation is necessary. Simple denial is enough for true faith.

"An open mind is like a fortress with its gate unbarred and unguarded." :rolleyes:


Also, literate interpretation of the translation of a book several millennia in the making is hardly the most fruitful method of analysis ever.

If I would have to pick an opinion about what "in God's image" means, I would say that God made human beings similar to himself in the way we think, how we exist and perceive ourselves as sentient beings, not how we look like. Luminous beings we are, not this crude matter, as the little guy said.

Or like someone (I think it was C.S.Lewis) said with a fairly good point; "we do not have souls, we have a body." (or something like that).

Assuming that against all probability and scientific evidence, God really decided to create us as we are. Which do you think he would have paid more attention to, body or mind (or soul if you want to call it that)? He had just spent a whole lot of days making all sorts of critters, you would imagine that designing the bodywork would be fairly routinized by this point. Fixating on what kind of body the God made for this purpose doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the context of the story.

...of course, as the story goes, God chose to exclude the ability to perceive right and wrong (or good and evil).

Why God would want to create an equal in cognitive abilities with no concept of right and wrong (essentially a species of sociopaths) eludes me. I can't think of any good reason why anyone would do that.


Of course all this is purely academical, but worth a thought nevertheless. Dogmatic thinking of people who call themselves Christians is actually much more annoying than Christianity itself, and even though I don't have any faith in religions or supernatural or divine myself, it's worth doing some thinking on these matters and not just follow whichever opinion you first happen to be exposed to.

*blind and deaf because that way he can't read or hear the argument. And if he learns to read braille, he needs to be mute to not be able to disagree...
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 10:07:04 pm by Herra Tohtori »
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Or like someone (I think it was C.S.Lewis) said with a fairly good point; "we do not have souls, we have a body." (or something like that).

Lewis' quote runs thusly. "You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body."

So, not perhaps terribly supportive. On the other hand, I do believe in the soul even though I don't believe in God and think that if we ever do prove he exists, we need to get rid of him.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline peterv

  • 28
Here's a question to Christians: How many of us have being baptized under their free will? (not me) :doubt:

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
"First time I met a priest, the bastard tried to drown me..."

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
The idea of public Baptism is following one of verses in the New Testament, which tells Christians to affirm they're faith before they're friends and family in the congregation.

It's actually a little more important from a symbolic standpoint as it symbolizes the death of your old life and your resurrection into new life with Christ.

Which is why I don't get sprinkling kids when they're newborns, they're innocent of anything at that point.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline castor

  • 29
    • http://www.ffighters.co.uk./home/
Which is why I don't get sprinkling kids when they're newborns, they're innocent of anything at that point.
Well, if God is possible who the hell knows what else is..

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
The idea of public Baptism is following one of verses in the New Testament, which tells Christians to affirm they're faith before they're friends and family in the congregation.

It's actually a little more important from a symbolic standpoint as it symbolizes the death of your old life and your resurrection into new life with Christ.

Which is why I don't get sprinkling kids when they're newborns, they're innocent of anything at that point.

If you're born as a human baby, it means you didn't deserve to be reincarnated as a bonobo or a dolphin.