Author Topic: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!  (Read 14568 times)

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Offline Dilmah G

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
Yeah, as their size won't make maneuvering into position look that weird from a player perspective.
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Offline Ziame

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
I want AI to be good enough to make my wingmen talk to each other at their own and control the universe through the internets
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Offline Dilmah G

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
Yeah, personally I much rather set up waypoint sets, but the main FS2 campaign gives capships attack orders on occasion, which is my real issue with it.
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The word 'Yo' is only ever to be used as a singular greeting.
It is considered an insult to destroy a perfectly acceptable greeting by misuse. A 'Yo-Yo' is a toy spun from the index finger by small children and enthusiasts,
any such use as a greeting will result in prompt reprimand by any member of the 'African-American' or 'Sri-Lankans-who-think-they're-black' community

Fury`: if General Krav Maga wouldn't be enough, beating up 16 teenagers is going to get me into jail :p /
BlackMan: Maybe if you turned into pedobear you'd be more of a threat

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
And nothing in this thread should ever change the way the main FS2 campaign works anyway. So the issue is moot.

Having better capship AI is dependant on if it works better in new campaigns than the existing system.
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Offline Rodo

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
so... are we getting an IA improvement of cap ships... I'm guessing that it's a no because it can change retail campaign but still it would be a nice thing to conciderate.
el hombre vicio...

 

Offline Sushi

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
so... are we getting an IA improvement of cap ships... I'm guessing that it's a no because it can change retail campaign but still it would be a nice thing to conciderate.

I'm leaving it on the wishlist... after all, it's a wishlist. But keep in mind, this is a wishlist, not Sushi's Definitive TODO list. :) The point is to collect AI improvement ideas so that I (or anyone else) have some inspiration for what to toy with.

I'm definitely not planning on doing any capship AI anytime soon, partly for the reasons discussed above and partly because it's just not as interesting to me as some of the other issues. If you're curious, what I'm focusing on right now:

1. I'm trying to see if I can make the AI use slide functionality more aggressively (such as during evasion maneuvers, turret strafing, head-to-head jousting, and bombing runs).
2. I'm trying to figure out a good way to solve the "AI ships protecting something let themselves get slaughtered" problem.

I have a pretty good idea of at least one reason why #2 happens: AI ships that get shot when more than 500m from their guarded ship don't do anything to evade or pursue their attacker. So, if they're trying to catch back up with the ship they're guarding, they'll fly in a straight line while getting shot from behind. I'm sure you've seen it. :) There are probably other cases that fall under the "dumb AI is suicidal" category, but this is one of the big ones. The question now is, what's the best way to solve the problem? Should the AI ships turn to fight their attacker, at least temporarily? Should they evade for a bit without firing back? Should that 500m threshold be extended?

Any thoughts? :) I'll probably end up trying them all, but I think I like the "evade" option best.

 

Offline asyikarea51

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
I was going to suggest a 'tack-on' idea / improvement / whatever you want to call it to one of Dilmah's earlier posts regarding bombers but I seem to have forgotten what I wanted to say :nervous:
Inferno plz
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Offline Dilmah G

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
The real issue is when ships head in a straight line they become a target for more hostile fighters, which is how you end up seeing one myrmidon heading leisurely with it's rear shields being assaulted by five Hercs. I think we should play with that 500 number, and switch it round, meaning above 500 metres the AI will turn around and engage the enemy for about 8-12 seconds (if it's possible), and then continue on course, diverting all power from guns to engines and using afterburners as frequently as possible to get to their target ship. Inside of the 500 metre bracket behaviour should stay the same though. Thing with evading, is that if the fighter is close, it will continue to score hits on the escorting fighter. Maybe if the attacker is outside of 1400 metres the escorting fighter will continue on course? (Apologies for using a post as a brain-storming session).
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Freespace Rap: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,62924.0.html

The Fighter Pilot Series: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=72431.msg1431423#msg1431423

The word 'Yo' is only ever to be used as a singular greeting.
It is considered an insult to destroy a perfectly acceptable greeting by misuse. A 'Yo-Yo' is a toy spun from the index finger by small children and enthusiasts,
any such use as a greeting will result in prompt reprimand by any member of the 'African-American' or 'Sri-Lankans-who-think-they're-black' community

Fury`: if General Krav Maga wouldn't be enough, beating up 16 teenagers is going to get me into jail :p /
BlackMan: Maybe if you turned into pedobear you'd be more of a threat

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
BTW Sushi, is there any way I can get a look at a diff of your Sushi Glide changes?
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Offline Sushi

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
(Apologies for using a post as a brain-storming session).

No problem! I like brainstorming, ideas are good.

BTW Sushi, is there any way I can get a look at a diff of your Sushi Glide changes?

Yeah, there's a diff included in the .zip linked to in the SushiGlide v5 thread. The extension is .patch, but as far as I can tell the format is the same as .diff (and SVN seems to understand both). If for some reason that doesn't work, I can generate and post a new patch file.

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
If you're planning to make bombers jink around as they come under fire on their runs, you could probably use that same maneuvering scheme for fighters trying to catch up to the ship they're protecting.  The problem I see with having them turn and fight their pursuers wherever they are is that if you put a time limit on their engagement, they'll just go back to playing catch up and getting stomped when it expires, and if you let them fight their attackers indefinitely it'd be the same as if they didn't have the protect order on at all.  Protect has to prioritize getting to the heavy hitters over preserving your own ship in order for it to be a meaningful strategy, so I'd say random twitch dodges or some sort of evasive corkscrew with afterburners would be a good compromise when the protector comes under fire.

 

Offline Angelus

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
The way fighters follow waypoints.
Fighters usually slow down when they reach a waypoint within a waypoint path, then they accelerate as soon they face  the next waypoint, which looks sometimes a bit odd.
This should be changed, so that they fly towards the next waypoint without slowing down, IMO.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
If you're planning to make bombers jink around as they come under fire on their runs, you could probably use that same maneuvering scheme for fighters trying to catch up to the ship they're protecting.  The problem I see with having them turn and fight their pursuers wherever they are is that if you put a time limit on their engagement, they'll just go back to playing catch up and getting stomped when it expires, and if you let them fight their attackers indefinitely it'd be the same as if they didn't have the protect order on at all.  Protect has to prioritize getting to the heavy hitters over preserving your own ship in order for it to be a meaningful strategy, so I'd say random twitch dodges or some sort of evasive corkscrew with afterburners would be a good compromise when the protector comes under fire.


Good point.

Would it be possible to change the behaviour of Wings ( fighters/ bombers in Wings) ?

I think something like, a Wing of six fighters have the order to attack a cap ship.
They are attacked by enemy fighters, now 3 of them turn to face the new threat, while the others continue the attack on the cap.

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Offline karajorma

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
Yeah, there's a diff included in the .zip linked to in the SushiGlide v5 thread. The extension is .patch, but as far as I can tell the format is the same as .diff (and SVN seems to understand both). If for some reason that doesn't work, I can generate and post a new patch file.

No there isn't. First place I checked. :) The download has the .exes, a readme and folders for BtRL, Realspace and TBP but no diff (either diff or patch is fine. Don't know what the difference is if any either).

The earlier versions seem to have it but the most recent one doesn't.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
The question now is, what's the best way to solve the problem? Should the AI ships turn to fight their attacker, at least temporarily? Should they evade for a bit without firing back? Should that 500m threshold be extended?

Any thoughts? :) I'll probably end up trying them all, but I think I like the "evade" option best.

Personally I'd suggest

1) Create an AI_Profiles flag to turn on new behaviour. If the flag is set make the decision on what to do dependant on the already existing AI table $evasion and $courage values as they do next to nothing anyway.

or

2) Add new settings to ai.tbl and only modify behaviour from default if they are present.
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Offline Sushi

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
No there isn't. First place I checked. :) The download has the .exes, a readme and folders for BtRL, Realspace and TBP but no diff (either diff or patch is fine. Don't know what the difference is if any either).
The earlier versions seem to have it but the most recent one doesn't.

Well crap, you're right! I feel dumb. :) Try again, it should be there now.

If you're planning to make bombers jink around as they come under fire on their runs, you could probably use that same maneuvering scheme for fighters trying to catch up to the ship they're protecting. 

Bombers already DO jink. They don't use sidethrust to do so, but they do dive out of the way. By default, they only go left or right though (I've added experimental code that will also make them go up or down, seems to work fine).

The problem I see with having them turn and fight their pursuers wherever they are is that if you put a time limit on their engagement, they'll just go back to playing catch up and getting stomped when it expires, and if you let them fight their attackers indefinitely it'd be the same as if they didn't have the protect order on at all.  Protect has to prioritize getting to the heavy hitters over preserving your own ship in order for it to be a meaningful strategy, so I'd say random twitch dodges or some sort of evasive corkscrew with afterburners would be a good compromise when the protector comes under fire.

Great job summarizing why this is a tricky design problem. :) The current "evade" behavior does include "afterburner and jink" as one of the things it can do, but it doesn't ever do so with a specific destination in mind. One of the ideas I've been toying with is exactly what you described: a new "evade-to-point" behavior where the ship tries to evade fire but still move towards a specific point. In theory, at least, it doesn't sound too complicated... evade but in a way where the ship is always moving towards a point within N degrees of their target destination.

The way fighters follow waypoints.
Fighters usually slow down when they reach a waypoint within a waypoint path, then they accelerate as soon they face  the next waypoint, which looks sometimes a bit odd.
This should be changed, so that they fly towards the next waypoint without slowing down, IMO.

Isn't this a FRED issue? I haven't done any FRED stuff for a while, but can't you set the speed of each waypoint or something? I know that I've seen the situation you're talking about, but I've also seen plenty of places where the ships just barrel through their waypoints at full speed. One example that comes to mind is the escape pods in mission 3 of ST:R. They hit several waypoints where they turn slightly, but they never slow down.

 

Offline Sushi

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
Sorry for the double post... missed a couple. :)

Would it be possible to change the behaviour of Wings ( fighters/ bombers in Wings) ?

I think something like, a Wing of six fighters have the order to attack a cap ship.
They are attacked by enemy fighters, now 3 of them turn to face the new threat, while the others continue the attack on the cap.



So, in other words, wings that act as intelligent squads? That would be cool, although difficult to make a general AI for. I'll add it to the wishlist, but I think that some smart FREDding (like giving different order priorities to different ships in a wing) can probably get you the same effect with a lot less effort. :)

Personally I'd suggest

1) Create an AI_Profiles flag to turn on new behaviour. If the flag is set make the decision on what to do dependant on the already existing AI table $evasion and $courage values as they do next to nothing anyway.

or

2) Add new settings to ai.tbl and only modify behaviour from default if they are present.

Yeah, naturally everything/anything I do with AI will have to be controlled by some sort of flag(s) so I don't break retail and modders have full control over everything they do/don't want.

 

Offline Angelus

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
Sorry for the double post... missed a couple. :)

Would it be possible to change the behaviour of Wings ( fighters/ bombers in Wings) ?

I think something like, a Wing of six fighters have the order to attack a cap ship.
They are attacked by enemy fighters, now 3 of them turn to face the new threat, while the others continue the attack on the cap.



So, in other words, wings that act as intelligent squads? That would be cool, although difficult to make a general AI for. I'll add it to the wishlist, but I think that some smart FREDding (like giving different order priorities to different ships in a wing) can probably get you the same effect with a lot less effort. :)


That's true, but my thought was: Place a few fighters, give 'em an attack/ protect order, and don't bother creating events that do exactly that. :D
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Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
One of the ideas I've been toying with is exactly what you described: a new "evade-to-point" behavior where the ship tries to evade fire but still move towards a specific point. In theory, at least, it doesn't sound too complicated... evade but in a way where the ship is always moving towards a point within N degrees of their target destination.
That would be perfect; it's exactly what I do if I'm being harassed by a Dragon or something, like in the last FS2 mission.  If you could get that working and make it so ships don't pointlessly smack into large stationary objects it would do worlds for FotG.  And other mods too, judging by how often Raiders would ram themselves into asteroids in the BtRL demo.  Best of luck with these changes! :yes:

 

Offline takashi

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Re: AI Wishlist: post what you'd like to see here!
More advanced dogfight styles, like start-stop to throw off a pursuer.

And bombers that actually defend themselves. That is, if it's possible to solely increase the accuracy of bomber turrets, not capship ones. Or have bombers pursue the occasional fighter when under attack.