Author Topic: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War  (Read 9090 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
The war started because of the Terran's being completely unaware of the importance of the 'conversation'. The Vasudans got pissed, and all negotiations broke down. Frankly, I think the Vasudans are pricks for being so instantly offended. It's like finding an acorn on the ground in the woods, leaving it, then getting angry because you see a squirrel running off with it the next day.
Yeah. And World War 1 was entirely Gavrilo Princip's fault.

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Steam
    • Something
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
Or the GTA could have dropped 2 Meson bombs ( once they research them ) on Vasushima and Nagasuda and then occupied the Vasudan homeworld.
Despite myself, I lol'd.

At the outset of the war, I agree that each side's primary goal was presumably military subjugation, if not complete territorial capture, of the other.  The Terrans certainly wanted to be able to continue their expansion unhindered, and I'm sure the Vasudans felt similarly.  Capturing the other side's home system would have certainly been a huge blow both strategically and psychologically, though because of their somewhat-decentralized industrial setup, I feel like the Vasudans would feel the loss of Vasuda Prime far less than the Terrans would of Sol (which the reconstruction era kind of bears out).  After fourteen years, though, I feel like the higher-ups on both sides were probably looking for some way to come to a mutual end of hostilities more than anything else, given the immense drain of resources and morale that the war caused.

 
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
The war started because of the Terran's being completely unaware of the importance of the 'conversation'. The Vasudans got pissed, and all negotiations broke down. Frankly, I think the Vasudans are pricks for being so instantly offended. It's like finding an acorn on the ground in the woods, leaving it, then getting angry because you see a squirrel running off with it the next day.
Yeah. And World War 1 was entirely Gavrilo Princip's fault.

Huh?
Sig nuked! New one coming soon!

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
Saying that the war was entirely caused by the misunderstanding/offense caused by the Conversation is as naive as saying there was only 1 cause for WW1.

 

Offline Blue Lion

  • Star Shatterer
  • 210
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
At least I know in the future we're still a barbaric race that'll slaughter an enemy at the risk of our own.

"Why are we fighting again?"

"I unno, tradition"

"Oh ok"

"Headz!"

 
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
Seeing my generation, it seems from my viewpoint that it's "I'm bored, lets kill stuff then talk about it on our cell phones while we pop the caps off some beer and caugh syrup"
Sig nuked! New one coming soon!

 

Offline Scotty

  • 1.21 gigawatts!
  • 211
  • Guns, guns, guns.
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
Oh, please!  Some of us are more civilized than that.  We pop the corks out of wine bottles and cough syrup :D.

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
I wonder how TVWP is going to handle this... ;7

 

Offline Solatar

  • 211
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
I think it's simply about space control and a war "because the other side is hostile".

Whether or not you have any real objections, if the other side is shooting you shoot back. When both sides have that mentality a war ensues. The objective, simply put for both sides, was to get the shooting to stop on your terms. Neither wanted to proposition a peace, because in a cynical childlike manner, you've admitted defeat.

Broad objectives were defined; capture the enemy capital, kill as many as possible, take control over territory, etc. These "objectives" were just ideas that the Terrans and Vasudans thought would end the war. When your ultimate objective is just to stop the war on your terms, there's no real "territorial" objective that will win. Capturing a major planet's industry (like Earth) would certainly help your case, but there's no guarantee.

Reminds me of some parts of the First World War really (prior to the entrance of the US)...Both sides are fighting hard for the advantage so that when, eventually, both economies wear down YOUR army is just a tiny bit ahead and can dictate the terms of the peace.

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
That sounds very reasonable. :yes:

 

Offline Solatar

  • 211
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
Note that despite the TVWP avatar I have, that isn't the official view of the project; just my personal one. I do think it's the most reasonable and "best for a story" one though.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
I think, by year 14, the purpose of the war wasn't really a matter for debate anymore. Both sides have thrown massive amounts of money and people into the conflict. Exhaustion is not setting in on the GTA's side. (Massive amounts of new equipment is about to enter service.) The Vasudans are towards the end of a fleetwide upgrade; they have deployed a new destroyer in recent memory, and a new bomber class. The Thoth is in the final stages of development.

The war has reached effective stalemate. Neither side has the means to win it at the moment. Both know this. They are still jockeying for posistion, hence Operation Thresher, but they are unwilling to risk their their core fleet units in an effort to attain victory. This is because while neither side has the ability to win, they are also aware that more wars are lost by the losers than won by the winners.

At this point the war goes on because nobody has the means to make it stop. The GTA and PVE have been at each other's throats for nearly a decade and a half. This is an eternity in terms of technological warfare. No war in human history since the musket was invented is remotely comparable. Neither of the World Wars even made a decade. The only war of comparable length, Japan against China, is of no use because of the diseperate capablities of the sides.

The T-V War had become not just a way of life, but an embedded part of Terran and Vasudan culture. It could not be torn out. It could not be stopped. Neither government likely wanted it to continue at this point, being fully aware that they cannot win but can still lose, but they could not simply declare peace because this is something that people have grown up with. Nobody even remembers what peace is anymore. It is no longer a means to an end, it is the end. The war was beyond the ability of its makers to control.

The arrival of the Shivans was greatfully seized on as a means to end the war by both sides.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 02:21:57 am by NGTM-1R »
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
The war started because of the Terran's being completely unaware of the importance of the 'conversation'. The Vasudans got pissed, and all negotiations broke down. Frankly, I think the Vasudans are pricks for being so instantly offended. It's like finding an acorn on the ground in the woods, leaving it, then getting angry because you see a squirrel running off with it the next day.
Yeah. And World War 1 was entirely Gavrilo Princip's fault.

[mobius]You're assuming that the Vasudans are pretty much like Terrans, and therefore don't start a war because of a misunderstanding.

The Vasudans couldn't imagine how long the war would have devastated T-V space - they wouldn't have started it, otherwise. Please note how the Vasudans were the ones who asked for a cease fire - what does it suggest?

Oh, no one expected World War One to be that dramatic, and Austria surely wouldn't have started it so easily.[/mobius]
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 04:41:17 pm by Mobius »
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
So you're really saying the T-V War was the Vasudan's fault?

I thought the entire point of FS1 was that it was neither species fault.

 

Offline wistler

  • 28
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
Bear in mind that the Vasudans were, quite obviously, completely alien. I'd wouldn't rule out xenophobia as a factor for the war starting, on both sides.

 

Offline Ziame

  • 28
  • ED ftw
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
T-V war was waged because Vasudans thought Terrans have more cookies and vice versa. Then Terran leaders said something bad about Vasudan Emperor, so VE thought "Hmm, I shall get their cookies and make their leaders make pie for me". So he attacked, and Terrans said "No way! Cookies are ours!" Luckily, Shivans arrived without any pie-demands and started killing everything, so Terrans and Vasudans thought "Oh ****, pie isn't important now, if we can't live, we can't eat pie!"

That's the whole story. Everything shown in FS is just propaganda, duh!
Rabbinic Judaism had a good start with the Old Testament but kinda missed the point about 2000 years ago

ALL HAIL HERRA
/fan of BlackHole

 
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
Mmm. Pie.



I don't know if I'd say that they were happy that the Shivans showed up. But oh well. It's an interesting topic. Highly plausible to say that both sides were trying to take out the other's homeworld. That's just what people do in war, they attach some arbitrary meaning to a location and assume the enemy will collapse the minute they take t. I.E. when the French invaded Russia in 1812 their big objective was Moscow and the mentality was "Oh we take Moscow we end the war blah blah blah". Which is silly but the point is it's not at all implausible that the Terrans' big goal in the T-V war was to take out Vasuda Prime.

That's one of the neatest things in the Freespace canon for me by the way. The whole notion of how important Earth is to the GTA, without Earth they have such a hard time during Reconstruction whereas the Vasudans are able to make a huge comeback.

 

Offline k19

  • 26
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
Capturing the other races home world would have destroyed their morale (effectively winning the war possibly) but the Germans and the English tried that approach in world war 2 by simply bombing each other capital cites (and others) to destroy each others moral...it didn't work. Even still whoever won the T-V war still lost...badly.

 

Offline Knight Templar

  • Stealth
  • 212
  • I'm a magic man, I've got magic hands.
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
I'm feeling extra rational, somewhat inspired, and a little pedantic this morning, so here we go,

I think it's simply about space control and a war "because the other side is hostile".

Whether or not you have any real objections, if the other side is shooting you shoot back. When both sides have that mentality a war ensues. The objective, simply put for both sides, was to get the shooting to stop on your terms. Neither wanted to proposition a peace, because in a cynical childlike manner, you've admitted defeat.

Broad objectives were defined; capture the enemy capital, kill as many as possible, take control over territory, etc. These "objectives" were just ideas that the Terrans and Vasudans thought would end the war. When your ultimate objective is just to stop the war on your terms, there's no real "territorial" objective that will win. Capturing a major planet's industry (like Earth) would certainly help your case, but there's no guarantee.

Reminds me of some parts of the First World War really (prior to the entrance of the US)...Both sides are fighting hard for the advantage so that when, eventually, both economies wear down YOUR army is just a tiny bit ahead and can dictate the terms of the peace.

Just to clarify:

In scientific terms, we define their dyadic dispute with audiences costs (domestic - the cost they incur in terms of approval ratings at home, for backing down during a war) and rewards (what each side gains from forcing each other to capitulate, obtaining specific objectives during the war, etc.) The thing about most wars is that they go from being arguments to military conflicts because each side isn't exactly sure what the limits of the other is. War is usually a last resort as war is ****ing costly, in lives and resources. Wars usually end when a side drives up the cost of the war higher than the cost of peace.

Also note that while war starts as a failure to come to an agreement, war doesn't terminate all communication. I'm pretty sure I remember reading in the reference bible that the two sides had  had diplomatic talks but they were inconclusive. Meaning, diplomats still try to figure out how to come to a compromise, but neither side is willing to pay the domestic / audience costs for what they'd get - what they'd receive in a truce is too little for how much **** they'd get at home. There are plenty of politics behind the scenario that probably weren't inserted into the universe because of time constraints in production, yet more likely because reading political babble would bore people to death when all they want to do is play a game where they can shoot things in space.

I brought this up mainly because you implied that carrying on war, or not coming to a peace agreement is child-like. There's a perfectly rational reason for why a war like this could carry on for so long. So long as you consider mass destruction and the death of thousands of people rational if used to satisfy a society's needs, it checks out scientifically. Note, rational doesn't mean moral or appropriate.

Another point of clarification: What I said about each side in the T-V war being uncertain of each other's capabilities and limits checks out specifically when the Shivans enter into the conflict. At this point, after observing that the Shivans are vastly superior, out for blood, and don't prefer any one side over the other, the domestic costs for peace between the Humans and Vasudans were then lower than the cost of total annihilation, which is why they came to a truce and subsequent alliance. Again, pretty obvious. 


The war started because of the Terran's being completely unaware of the importance of the 'conversation'. The Vasudans got pissed, and all negotiations broke down. Frankly, I think the Vasudans are pricks for being so instantly offended. It's like finding an acorn on the ground in the woods, leaving it, then getting angry because you see a squirrel running off with it the next day.
Yeah. And World War 1 was entirely Gavrilo Princip's fault.

[mobius]You're assuming that the Vasudans are pretty much like Terrans, and therefore don't start a war because of a misunderstanding.

The Vasudans couldn't imagine how long the war would have devastated T-V space - they wouldn't have started it, otherwise. Please note how the Vasudans were the ones who asked for a cease fire - what does it suggest?

Oh, no one expected World War One to be that dramatic, and Austria surely wouldn't have started it so easily.[/mobius]

But the Vasudans are pretty much like the Terrans. They just live in the desert, eat funny things, and speak a confusing-ass language from the back of their throats. Actually, that sounds kind of familiar... GG Volition with precognitive abilities. Seriously though, it states in the reference bible that they're really not supposed to be that dissimilar from another. Without looking it up myself, I believe it was something to the effect of the two sharing very similar origin stories. This is a story of human conflict: a war between humans and a race of people who while being from somewhere else, and looking a little different, also act like humans.

 
Bear in mind that the Vasudans were, quite obviously, completely alien. I'd wouldn't rule out xenophobia as a factor for the war starting, on both sides.

Wrong. See above. "Completely alien" would be a good way to describe the Shivans. Or Starfish. Or that black **** in Spiderman 3 that becomes Venom. Vasudans are about as alien as Cairo, which I guess is a slight matter of perspective, but only really to the ignorant.


I don't know if I'd say that they were happy that the Shivans showed up. But oh well. It's an interesting topic. Highly plausible to say that both sides were trying to take out the other's homeworld. That's just what people do in war, they attach some arbitrary meaning to a location and assume the enemy will collapse the minute they take t. I.E. when the French invaded Russia in 1812 their big objective was Moscow and the mentality was "Oh we take Moscow we end the war blah blah blah". Which is silly but the point is it's not at all implausible that the Terrans' big goal in the T-V war was to take out Vasuda Prime.

That's one of the neatest things in the Freespace canon for me by the way. The whole notion of how important Earth is to the GTA, without Earth they have such a hard time during Reconstruction whereas the Vasudans are able to make a huge comeback.

Again, the "capitals" of Earth and Vasuda come attached with not only physical value (industrial capability, food, supplies, other potential spoils of war) they also tend to be the seats of ruling governments. Obviously, if you can control a state's capital (and thus its ruling government) you can eliminate their opposition leadership to you and force them to capitulate to your demands. If you're all up in their population's business, killing and raping and pillaging, like one usually is when they're at someone's capital if things don't go how the invader likes, then the costs of war begin to far exceed the domestic costs of peace.

This is why Napoleon invaded Moscow. He only failed because he was in such a rush to get there, and the Russians didn't play rationally - they burned their own **** down to the ground to deny Napoleon any gains. Then again, maybe the Russians acted super-rationally.

The interesting thing about the Vasudans is that they were said to have had extra-effecient methods of logistics and organization (somehow attributed to their being a desert-dwelling, possibly nomadic society) which helped them survive the destruction of Vasuda Prime. Though this is sort of contrasted by the fact that they have a parliament and a dynastic monarchy for leadership, which are incredibly centralized.

Capturing the other races home world would have destroyed their morale (effectively winning the war possibly) but the Germans and the English tried that approach in world war 2 by simply bombing each other capital cites (and others) to destroy each others moral...it didn't work. Even still whoever won the T-V war still lost...badly.

You're right, kind of. I'd point you to Hiroshima and Nagasaki though, which worked out pretty well (in terms of conflict resolution.) I think in the case of the English and Germans, bombing capital's didn't stop the war because they didn't bomb enough. I'm not going to say London was a safe place to be in 1942, but it also wasn't burned to the ground. Neither was Berlin. Dresden on the other hand...
Copyright ©1976, 2003, KT Enterprises. All rights reserved

"I don't want to get laid right now. I want to get drunk."- Mars

Too Long, Didn't Read

 

Offline Eishtmo

  • The one and only
  • 29
  • The One and Only
    • http://www.angelfire.com/games2/fsarchive/index.html
Re: The objective of Terran/Vasudan War
Snip

I agree with just about all of this.  I've always thought of the war as gradually ramping up in severity until it reaches the point we see in FS1.  Early on, the "war" wasn't so much a war as a sequence of sparing battles spread out over a large scale region.  They were feeling each other out, testing the waters.  After a few years (around the time of Gulnara), the Terrans figured they could take the Vasudans out and dumped everything into them.  Then the Vasudans fought back outright and the war started down the path to what we know.
Warpstorm  Bringing Disorder to Chaos, And Eventually We'll Get It Right.

---------

I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.