Author Topic: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas  (Read 34144 times)

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
Colossus was built to fight The Great War. You gotta keep that in mind. It would have excelled in that war too, not even the Lucy could have stood against Colossus.

Colossus was a good ship. She terminated the NTF Rebellion single handed, don't forget that part. She was also able to destroy the Sathanas juggernaut, wasn't her fault there were freaking eighty more of them...

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
The Shivans are trying to combat entropy. ;)
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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
The idea of putting a substantial amount of the GTVA's resources into the Colossus just doesn't make sense. Just the size alone gives it the disadvantage of being an easier target to hit. It would be less maneuverable in combat and easier to disable make it more susceptible to bomber attacks. The loss of a ship of that size would deal a more damaging blow then losing multiple smaller destroyers. Especially since it would take 20 years just to construct a replacement. Another issue with the Colossus is its firepower. When attacking an individual ship it could deliver, at most, the firepower equal to that of 2.5 Orions if they could position the ship in the right location. For those of you wondering, the number 2.5 is not a mistake since only the guns on one side of the ship can attack an individual ship. If the target is directly in front of the ship or at one of its many blind spots, then it can only deliver the firepower of possibly one or two Orions. Compare this with 5 individual Orions that can swarm an enemy ship and engage it with a half their guns every time guaranteeing the full 2.5. In addition, the Colossus also suffers from the fact that it cannot deploy fighters to protect its entire surface area as quickly as a destroyer could.


Why fight when you can win the battle before it is even fought? The Colossus has the power to end a battle before it begins simply by its mention. Admittedly, this doesn't work against the Shivans, but against other threats that pop up within an organization, I.E. NTF, Pirates, its a weapon of propoganda as mentioned before, and a weapon of politics. An Orion cannot do that, neither can 5 orions.

 

Offline eliex

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
The Colossus has the power to end a battle before it begins simply by its mention. Admittedly, this doesn't work against the Shivans, but against other threats that pop up within an organization, I.E. NTF, Pirates, its a weapon of propoganda as mentioned before, and a weapon of politics. An Orion cannot do that, neither can 5 orions.

That's an excellent point; not all wars are settled by brute force but also politics and diplomacy.

 

Offline Lucika

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
The GTVA couldn't count with an open rebellion while building the ship.
I'd like to note as a side note to nodes that most of the systems are connected with more than one node to the others so I can hardly call anything an "important node" (can't recall the star map properly of course)

I would've used all those resources what were used on the Colly... to develop fighter-equippable beams.
(I know its overkill and impossible since this is a game designed to have some challenge, but as a sober human being I would've surely went on developing that.
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Offline Fenrir

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
Colossus was built to fight The Great War. You gotta keep that in mind. It would have excelled in that war too, not even the Lucy could have stood against Colossus.

Colossus was a good ship. She terminated the NTF Rebellion single handed, don't forget that part. She was also able to destroy the Sathanas juggernaut, wasn't her fault there were freaking eighty more of them...

This. It did what it was meant to do just fine.

 

Offline eliex

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
The GTVA couldn't count with an open rebellion while building the ship.

The Colossus was about 18 years in construction by the time the NTF Rebellion started. Also, it should be noted that the Terran colonies' economy was heavily devastated at that time so large scale warzones were negligible.

I'd like to note as a side note to nodes that most of the systems are connected with more than one node to the others so I can hardly call anything an "important node" (can't recall the star map properly of course)

Although the official  :v: starmap doesn't show all a system's nodes, fully stable nodes such as the Delta Serpentis-Sol node is hard to come by. Losing one would be devastating. Other nodes are usually very unstable and usually collapse rapidly.

I would've used all those resources what were used on the Colly... to develop fighter-equippable beams.
(I know its overkill and impossible since this is a game designed to have some challenge, but as a sober human being I would've surely went on developing that.

The Colossus was more than a juggernaut designed for killing a second Lucifer. It was the symbol of unity between the Vasudans and the Terrans, and as jkalltheway said, could be used as a political point.
Fighters equipped with beams could not provide that, and perhaps the fighter-beam technology could be stolen, losing a powerful advantage over any possible enemy. The Colossus however, would always be part of the GTVA.

 

Offline High Max

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
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« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 05:17:37 pm by High Max »
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Offline eliex

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
No because if the Colossus existed back then, it would have no beam tech, but I guess they can pierce Lucifer shields, hopefully, since beams pierce fighter shields (bypass them completely) and damage hulls. Secondly, the Lucifer would badly damage the Colossus with its 2 forward beams if they are the same as they are in FS2; a very short delay between rounds and seemingly longer lasting volleys with each round while Terran beams are weaker and take longer to recharge. I assume that the SSL laser is meant to be the Lucifer's beams in FS2 but the graphics in FS1 weren't good enough to make them like that at the time.

The Colossus was designed to defeat a second Lucifer if a Shivan fleet similar to that in the 1st Shivan Incursion were present.
As weird as this seems, the canon FS2 beam loadout for the Lucifer are 2 SReds. In Derelict, the Lucifer there had it's beam firepower buffed immensely.

 

Offline Lucika

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
Well, I forgot to add my main point... it was morning and pre-school run :)
The fact that there is NO CANON EVIDENCE that beams are actually capable of piercing those special Lucy shields.
Imagine that Lucy 2 shows up and it turns out that the Colly is unable to penetrate its shields... :P

So, if we consider that (apart the political and etc. reasons) the whole point of the ship was based upon an assumption... well...  :shaking:
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Offline Dilmah G

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
Yes, but with 12 beam cannons, what survives against that? :P You're right though IMO.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
Well, I forgot to add my main point... it was morning and pre-school run :)
The fact that there is NO CANON EVIDENCE that beams are actually capable of piercing those special Lucy shields.
Imagine that Lucy 2 shows up and it turns out that the Colly is unable to penetrate its shields... :P

So, if we consider that (apart the political and etc. reasons) the whole point of the ship was based upon an assumption... well...  :shaking:

Well, there's no canon evidence the Lucy shields were in an any way special, either - maybe they just had a lot of big reactors powering them.

So it's all supposition either way.

 

Offline High Max

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
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« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 05:18:27 pm by High Max »
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Offline Snail

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
I think he means Bosch.
I'm pretty sure it's kappa 3  :lol:
I think he means Bosch. :lol:

 

Offline wistler

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
By the way, I wonder if anyone can estimate the actual number of Terran and Vasudan warships and capships (destroyers, freighters, other types, number of each class, etc). Too bad Volition never gave us canonical mention of that.

People often write themselves into corners when they go down this road. Its usually best to leave things vague.

 

Offline Lucika

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
Well, I forgot to add my main point... it was morning and pre-school run :)
The fact that there is NO CANON EVIDENCE that beams are actually capable of piercing those special Lucy shields.
Imagine that Lucy 2 shows up and it turns out that the Colly is unable to penetrate its shields... :P

So, if we consider that (apart the political and etc. reasons) the whole point of the ship was based upon an assumption... well...  :shaking:

Well, there's no canon evidence the Lucy shields were in an any way special, either - maybe they just had a lot of big reactors powering them.

So it's all supposition either way.

Everyone manages to forget that the Lucy had different shields than the one the Shivans had on their fighters? Simple logic: we can penetrate the shield on the fighters with our primaries, but not the other one (and yes, I realize that it was no more than a mere invulnerabity flag in FRED, but canonically it has a shield and it IS different than the fighter ones). So they had to be special.

The thing what the GTVA had to state is: "We cannot be sure whether beams are capable of surpassing the Lucifer's shields."
In this case, the Colly might have been unable to act in its main role, what, if you ask me, is way too great risk at a ship built for 20 years.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
Well, I forgot to add my main point... it was morning and pre-school run :)
The fact that there is NO CANON EVIDENCE that beams are actually capable of piercing those special Lucy shields.
Imagine that Lucy 2 shows up and it turns out that the Colly is unable to penetrate its shields... :P

So, if we consider that (apart the political and etc. reasons) the whole point of the ship was based upon an assumption... well...  :shaking:

Well, there's no canon evidence the Lucy shields were in an any way special, either - maybe they just had a lot of big reactors powering them.

So it's all supposition either way.

Everyone manages to forget that the Lucy had different shields than the one the Shivans had on their fighters? Simple logic: we can penetrate the shield on the fighters with our primaries, but not the other one (and yes, I realize that it was no more than a mere invulnerabity flag in FRED, but canonically it has a shield and it IS different than the fighter ones). So they had to be special.

The thing what the GTVA had to state is: "We cannot be sure whether beams are capable of surpassing the Lucifer's shields."
In this case, the Colly might have been unable to act in its main role, what, if you ask me, is way too great risk at a ship built for 20 years.

All fanwank. It's just as possible that the Lucy shields worked just like fighter shields but with a ton of really big reactors powering them.

Whatever works for your campaign is fair game.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
The thing what the GTVA had to state is: "We cannot be sure whether beams are capable of surpassing the Lucifer's shields."
In this case, the Colly might have been unable to act in its main role, what, if you ask me, is way too great risk at a ship built for 20 years.
Since we're all providing suppositions of various sorts, I've always operated under the supposition that GTVA Command is at least intelligent enough to not invest twenty years and myriad resources into a massive project like the Colossus without being just about certain that it would be capable of defeating its primary target. :p  The GTVA had detailed scans of the Lucifer's internal systems from "Playing Judas" (and other similar efforts, most likely), so they had to have a good idea of its mechanics and overall power output.  Also note that the FS2 tech room states that the Lucifer's shields were "impenetrable to all weapons at the time," which would seem to indicate that this is thought to no longer be the case.  Whether or not the Colossus's main beam cannons would penetrate the Lucifer's shields without being affected at all may be up for debate, but I feel fairly certain that they would have done a significant level of damage even in the worst case.

As for the Lucifer's armaments in FS2, I've always assumed that those SReds were just a matter of someone at :v: sticking some beam cannons on the model, since the ship never appeared in the retail campaign anyway.  To have any sort of accurate match-up between the Lucifer and Colossus, I think you have to go back to the Shivan Super Lasers, or the equivalent SSLBeams that the FSPort developed.

And as for fighter-equipped beams...if you could tell the GTVA how a fighter-size reactor would be able to power a beam stronger than a weak AAA, or how such a beam and its heatsinks could be made small and light enough to practically mount on a fighter, I'm sure they'd love to hear it. :p

 

Offline Lucika

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
I'd still say that it can't be sure... and I hope that you agree. THEY - CAN'T - BE - SURE.
I'd just catch up with the in-subspace killing and developing a way of node-reopening. All that resources should've been spent on that instead of a big bad baseball bat.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: The one thing I didn't like about FS2 was how it handled the Sathanas
I think they probably were sure, actually.

It's just that WE can't be sure.

But Mongoose has provided good evidence to convince me that GTVA command was sure.