[shiv]

portej05, how can I contact with you?

[portej05]

Send me a PM or use the email address in my profile

[Goober5000]

Does wxWidgets integrate with VC2008? Cause I seem to get mixed information on it depending on where I look.

Dunno offhand, but then again I haven't had much time to research it.

I do know that DialogBlocks isn't necessary; it's just convenient.  The whole thing is saved in text format anyway, using some XML format IIRC.  It's not perfect, but it is usable.

If QT does require an install of some sort in order to work (especially on Windows) then I'm against it. We already have enough PITA issues with OpenAL to go adding another one with QT if we don't need to.

Strongly agree with this.

[Tomo]

If QT does require an install of some sort in order to work (especially on Windows) then I'm against it. We already have enough PITA issues with OpenAL to go adding another one with QT if we don't need to.

Strongly agree with this.

QT doesn't need an 'install' as such, but it does need some external DLLs (or target OS equivalent). They are often simply copied into the application directory - no need for any registering etc that way.

Which ones depend on the feature set you need - under Windows QtCore4 is 1.5MB, QtGUI4 is 6MB, QtOpenGL4 is 372 KB and QtNetwork4 is 572 KB

I suppose the two core issues are really the OpenGL performance and ease-of-use.

[karajorma]

Given that TBP final shipped with .dlls that haven't been needed by the engine for over 3-4 years you can see why I'm not keen on adding another layer for people to screw up with.

[portej05]

Given that TBP final shipped with .dlls that haven't been needed by the engine for over 3-4 years you can see why I'm not keen on adding another layer for people to screw up with.

That's poor dependency management, not a problem with using dependencies.

[karajorma]

Yeah but the majority of time I've spent on solving problems for people has been on silly little issues like that or like the lack of OpenAL, etc. Just keep an eye on the SCP and support forums and you'll see how much time is spent on that sort of issue. I'm not keen to add another one to the mix.

The problem with FS2_Open is that not everyone upgrades at the same time. If we require QT for the launcher, FRED and stand alone GUI we've added three possible points of failure. Now take a look at the way advice is given on this forum and you'll start to see my problem with it.

Someone new comes onto the forum and reports having a problem with a mission they're FREDding. They get told that the latest FRED solves the problem. So they download it, and it crashes. They have to come back and explain that the solution didn't work. It could be a while before we notice that they had upgraded straight from FRED 3.6.11 to QtFRED. Especially if we point them at a nightly build (thereby skipping the official build with the QT .dlls in it).

And if anyone ever decides we need a feature from the newest QT version, the fun begins all over again. What I describe is not an isolated case either. You won't see it much around the time an official build comes out but as time wears on it will become more and more common. You'll see it the first time someone tries out the standalone too. And you'll probably still see it from time to time with the launcher in ways I can't predict but definitely anticipate seeing.

I know what I'm talking about here. I've done a LOT of support work on this board. It's the main reason I have such a large post count. And although I've largely passed the torch on to Lobo now I still know pretty well how easily something that seems as simple as including .dlls with the builds can spin out into a support nightmare.

[Tomo]

My day job is support for software, hardware and custom systems, so I fully understand where you're coming from.
- Ever tried to troubleshoot a system where they can't even tell you what kind of hardware (PC/Mac/television/VCR/lightswitch) they've got? That's my daily nightmare.

I'm generally used to providing full-blown 'installers', that handle all the dependencies and updates for the end user - like adding MySQL ODBC links, Qt libraries, sound drivers etc.

Building it all into the executable certainly has appeal!

I suppose I just quite like Qt, and it's available under the LGPL - the licence for wxWidgets concerns me as parts of it are paid-for.

[Goober5000]

Parts of other application have often historically been paid for, then released as open source.  IIRC, ogg got its start this way.  WxWidgets is not exceptional in this regard.  And the wxWidgets license qualifies as open source (it's based on the LGPL) as can be seen via a simple search.

[Tomo]

Hmmm - so it is.

It's only some of the 'helper' apps that are paid for, not the libraries themselves. Doh!

[Spicious]

Is anyone working on this yet?

[karajorma]

I think the plan was to go stand alone GUI -> Launcher -> FRED so that we're solving problems in order of their size.

[portej05]

yeah, the plan is Launcher->FRED, and that won't start until after 3.6.10 has been released, the code analysis stuff has been fully processed and resolved, and mantis has been upgraded and checked through.
As far as the standalone GUI goes, we're still looking at whether that can be rewritten in wxWidgets given the structure of the code.

[shiv]

I'm not programmer, but once again: You can count on any other help with Linux stuff from me

[portej05]

Cheers Shiv, hugely appreciated.

[Spicious]

Oh, it's just that I've got a few weeks to waste and it seemed like something interesting to try working on.

[portej05]

You can start already!

We do need UI concepts for the launcher and FRED
We do need UI mockups/interface design work done
We do need launcher backend design done
We do need library research done into WxWidgets to determine its suitability for this project (both launcher and FRED)
We do need some really good documentation on what FRED actually does (what it relies on, how it does things, etc) and also for the launcher (for example, I didn't know that FS actually reads its command line parameters from a file, or maybe that's just for debugging, or something!)

In short, we really need design work done atm.
In longer, anything you can contribute will be really appreciated.

Hope this helps!

[Goober5000]

Or if you wanted to do some actual coding, the following would be helpful:

1) Convert the standalone GUI from MFC to wxWidgets (it's a small enough task that it could be doable by one person in a few weeks)
or
2) Get DialogBlocks, and use it to create all the FRED dialogs.

[karajorma]

The lack of a standalone GUI is the only thing preventing people from hosting standalones on Linux and Mac AFAIK so it's definitely worth getting done.

[shiv]

We do need UI concepts for the launcher and FRED

I know a bit of C# and I can design some concepts in Microsoft C# Express 2008 Studio that you can redo later in other programms. Is it fair enough for you?