Author Topic: Games that wowed you  (Read 16997 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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I'd agree with you that GalCiv 2 has one of the best AI's I've ever seen.
I'd still rate SOTS AI a bit higher tough.

Please take the time to compare properly.

GalCiv2 is not without flaws, but the AI's complexity, adaptability and ability for variety as well as the attention to detail and flavor, is something absolutely unique in the genre.
Sots AI is functional enough, but no matter how much you like the game, if you would compare the AI aspect properly you would come to the same conclusion as pretty much anyone does.

Anyone?
Hehe... You think GalCiv2 is the best and it's AI is the best thing since fire, I get it.
Painting anyone who doesn't agree with you as irratoinal is another thing alltogether. I'm as objective and rtational as I can possibly be...and I still think SOTS AI is better.


I thought that at the time of AMoC everyone was still in the Fusion era, even the Liir and Morrigi.  Late Fusion, but still Fusion.  It still doesn't change the fact that they can't build ships big enough to mount planet-destroying superlasers.  The biggest ships in SotS are only about as big as a Fenris.  It would be interesting to see SolForce and the GTVA fight each other in a BoE situation though.  The GTVA's massive beams and insane HP versus SolForce's lots of guns and smaller, faster ships.

Yes. NOT having planet-destroying super-lasers is what I like about SOTS. I hate redicolous tech.

Like a small ship (even 20km is nothing compared to a planet) will ever be able to produce enough power to destroy a planet. That's retarded.
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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Carmageddon is a great game, but it's very old. :(
My blog

Quote: Thursday, 14 January 2021, 1958 hrs UTC, #general
Dobbsylondon
Nobody's allowed out over here anyway.   I nominate E (as a fair and just overlord) to arrange a Zoom HLP Social.

The_E
wait what

 

Offline Alpha0

  • 24
If I didn't play (and buy) JnG or tried out JnGG, I would probably spend the rest of my years whining about metal music. The fact that I don't usually do that now is thanks to the works of MS in JnG. :)
I honestly think that the only reason people may still be discussing Jets'n'Guns in a few years from now will be the Machinae Supremacy soundtrack. Yes, it really is that good.

 

Offline Mikes

  • 29
Anyone?
Hehe... You think GalCiv2 is the best and it's AI is the best thing since fire, I get it.
Painting anyone who doesn't agree with you as irratoinal is another thing alltogether. I'm as objective and rtational as I can possibly be...and I still think SOTS AI is better.

You are perfectly free to believe whatever you want, just as i am perfectly free to point out that pretty much everyone will disagree with you on that matter, including pretty much any serious review site and they do so for good reason ;)  (If you want to attack 8/8s credibility on that matter as well, or whoever elses... feel free :coughs:).

As said before, Sots is a decent enough game, with a functional enough AI. That AI however is not even in the same ballpark as the complex multibranching and interactive AI of Galciv2 (with emphasis: I'm not talking about the game as a whole, or even the gaming experience or difficulty, of course THAT part is subjective. ... AI complexity and variety however is not.)

In this instance, i'm not even calling one game better than the other. That is indeed a mostly subjective matter and therefore would be a different argument. I'm referring to the complexity of a very specific and isolated aspect of each game - the AI - and am hardly alone with my assessment. I don't think you are doing your own argument about the overall superiority of Sots a favor here, when you call me biased on this very specific point ;)



I thought that at the time of AMoC everyone was still in the Fusion era, even the Liir and Morrigi.  Late Fusion, but still Fusion.  It still doesn't change the fact that they can't build ships big enough to mount planet-destroying superlasers.  The biggest ships in SotS are only about as big as a Fenris.  It would be interesting to see SolForce and the GTVA fight each other in a BoE situation though.  The GTVA's massive beams and insane HP versus SolForce's lots of guns and smaller, faster ships.

Yes. NOT having planet-destroying super-lasers is what I like about SOTS. I hate redicolous tech.

Like a small ship (even 20km is nothing compared to a planet) will ever be able to produce enough power to destroy a planet. That's retarded.


You are neglecting the different timescales involved.

Sots is taking place during a very specific time period and is mostly about military conquest. Thats how you end/win the game anyways. Of course technology is expected to not radically change from one day to the other, i fully agree. It's quite similar to Sins of a Solar Empire in THAT respect, except of course that each game is portraying a slightly different period of technological advancement. Both games are pretty much locked in a period however.

But you are doing the 4X genre in general a disservice if you do not acknowledge that other games like MMO2, GalCiv or SE4 simply deal with entirely different timescales that are not locked in a specific time period... but rather with a races interstellar story start to finish in its entirety: From the very first interstellar ship that is built to a galaxydominating empire where "victory" can involve anything from cultural to military domination, to securing galaxywide peace with diplomacy, to a races ascension to a higher plane of existence. Expecting technology NOT to radically change here would be kinda silly...  

And it also has to be pointed out that in most games its not quite as silly as you make it deliberately appear there. A super laser on a small ship that destroys planets ? ... In the case of GalCiv2 try star bases that about look as big as a planet, assembled in multiple stages, over multiple turns, that can only move a single field a turn and take several turns to activate after completion. Course you can kill a sun (not planet, sun ;) with it and annihilate an entire star system in the process... but to do so you need to have military superiority in the first place because otherwise your "Terror Star" will simply be shot down by the enemies fleet. And in Space Empires 4 ? Well you can build frigging Ringworlds and Dyson Spheres that turn the whole system into a giant habitable world, which does deserve a mention, even tho the game as a whole kinda sucks. ;)

In any case... you are doing the genre a huge disservice if you don't acknowledge the difference in timescales involved and what they mean for a "campaign".

As i keep saying: Gotta give credit where credit is due. Don't just lump everything together.

"Early, Mid and Lategame" can mean entirely different things depending on what game you look at and what overall timescale is actually involved.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2009, 08:30:05 am by Mikes »

 

Offline TrashMan

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You are perfectly free to believe whatever you want, just as i am perfectly free to point out that pretty much everyone will disagree with you on that matter, including pretty much any serious review site and they do so for good reason ;)  (If you want to attack 8/8s credibility on that matter as well, or whoever elses... feel free :coughs:).

Again, the feabled "everyone". They don't exist.  I can find more than enough people who think the same as me, and with that being the case, the everyone theory falls apart.







Quote
You are neglecting the different timescales involved.

Sots is taking place during a very specific time period and is mostly about military conquest. Thats how you end/win the game anyways. Of course technology is expected to not radically change from one day to the other, i fully agree. It's quite similar to Sins of a Solar Empire in THAT respect, except of course that each game is portraying a slightly different period of technological advancement. Both games are pretty much locked in a period however.


But you are doing the 4X genre in general a disservice if you do not acknowledge that other games like MMO2, GalCiv or SE4 simply deal with entirely different timescales that are not locked in a specific time period... but rather with a races interstellar story start to finish in its entirety: From the very first interstellar ship that is built to a galaxydominating empire where "victory" can involve anything from cultural to military domination, to securing galaxywide peace with diplomacy, to a races ascension to a higher plane of existence. Expecting technology NOT to radically change here would be kinda silly... 

Doesn't really matter. I don't believe any civilization will be blowing up planets or suns. EVER. Not even a kazillion years in the future.

Energy generation has it's limits (with anti-matter. you  can't go over 100%), planets are big, and blowing them up is a MASSIVE waste of time and resources.
Completley upractical and unlikely.
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Offline Skullar

  • 29
As one of the seniors in here :
RTS : Command and Conquer . Red Alert
One of the first games requiring WINDOWS 95 to run, in a time when MULTIPLAYER games were new the first LAN-Parties took place. LONG before online gaming, guys ! First BIG lanparties were ALL about the DUKE and Red Alert :)

FPS : System Shock 2
It has been mentioned, especially the sound'n'music created an atmosphere that was simple breathtaking. I don't kow how often I played it through. For those who remember : There is an high-poly fan update out there, download and replay SYSTEM SHOCK 2 !!!

WING COMMANDER 1
THE reason to buy a PC at all. Nothing on a C-64 or an Amiga-500 could rival the gamplay of WING COMMANDER with our blue-hair hero Lt.Blair. TBPs EACW campaign is inspired by Wing Commanders way to create atmopshere.

STAR CONTROL 2
Now, keyboard controlled real time space combat in 2d-space, THAT was fun, the story was hilarious and it was a game FAAAAr ahead of its time. I played it for years and loved the story, the atmopshere, the music, everone should know this game. Fans remade it for modern systems, and it can be found online under the name THE UR-QUAN MASTERS. THAT was game design, people ! A game from a time people KNEW how to design games !

TIE FIGHTER
Far better than xwing, and with a music score to die for. Former TBP, IFH soundartist BLACKSHEEP grabbed a few midis from the original game, and we two rearranged them to make three mp3s that take you back into your childhood :) In addition, he used professional sound software to let the COMBAT-SIMULATOR midi play with real instruments ( as if recorded by London Synphonic orchestra ), also dropped as mp3. WOW ! I still have them and hear them.

Master Of Orion 2
Yeah, my two cousins tried to beat each other for YEARS in top score, at a time I couldn't rival them any longer. Best method was to expand at all costs, as soon as possible.


 

Offline mxlm

  • 29
Carmageddon is a great game, but it's very old. :(

Members of the public, you now have one minute to reach minimum safe distance.
I will ask that you explain yourself. Please do so with the clear understanding that I may decide I am angry enough to destroy all of you and raze this sickening mausoleum of fraud down to the naked rock it stands on.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Speaking of automotive carnage, Twisted Metal 2 was pretty much the high point of my PS1-playing experience.  Just all-out fast-paced car-on-car destruction from start to finish, featuring a hefty lineup of different vehicles, each with their own unique special power.  The levels took you all over the world, but the highlight had to be the ability to blow the hell out of the Eiffel Tower in Paris and use its remains to trek across the rooftops.  The soundtrack was great, the atmosphere was fantastic, and everything played perfectly.  Just don't ask me about the terrible sequels. :p

For a more realistic take on things, I loved the game Demolition Racer on the same system.  Try to earn points from smashing the hell out of your fellow vehicles while keeping yours (mostly) intact, but you'll have to finish the race near the front to get enough of a multiplier to win the day.  It had to have some of the most realistic damage modeling of its generation, and again, it had a nice array of cars to take for a spin, all set to a rocking soundtrack.  There's just nothing in the world as satisfying as lining yourself up for the perfect death-from-above insta-kill on an opponent and earning 500 points in the process. :D

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Again, the feabled "everyone". They don't exist.  I can find more than enough people who think the same as me, and with that being the case, the everyone theory falls apart.

Okay, fine.

Here's the drill.

You are demonstrably completely wrong. It doesn't matter that you can find other people because they're demonstrably wrong. Mikes can't word an argument, sure, we get that, but that doesn't change the fact the GalCiv 2 AI is greatly superior to any competitor you care to name and can be proved to be so.
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Offline TrashMan

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You are demonstrably completely wrong. It doesn't matter that you can find other people because they're demonstrably wrong. Mikes can't word an argument, sure, we get that, but that doesn't change the fact the GalCiv 2 AI is greatly superior to any competitor you care to name and can be proved to be so.

Can be proved?
By you and what army?


Btw I just got back playing Gal Civ 2 again. Dark Avatar to be more specific.
And it just reminded me why I stopped playing in the first place - so many exploits. Tons and tons of exploits. Both in game mechanics AND AI.
I'm owning the game cause my diplomacy is so high that I'm practicely stealing ALL tech by trading from ALL the other races. I'm building stabases inside another territory and it's not considered an act of war.

Oh, and the fact that so many tech are supurflus and redicolous. Titanium I-IV, Laser I-IV etc... the ONLY difference is size. That's it. Or, having to research Alliances before you can enter one? What's there to research?

Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Mikes

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Again, the feabled "everyone". They don't exist.  I can find more than enough people who think the same as me, and with that being the case, the everyone theory falls apart.

Okay, fine.

Here's the drill.

You are demonstrably completely wrong. It doesn't matter that you can find other people because they're demonstrably wrong. Mikes can't word an argument, sure, we get that, but that doesn't change the fact the GalCiv 2 AI is greatly superior to any competitor you care to name and can be proved to be so.

:snickers: well, so, neither can you ;) Kidding aside, i find it refreshing that we actually find ourselves agreeing on some point for a change.

I am pretty certain however that your argument here will not convince Trashman any more than mine did. Just watch lol.
Try prove him wrong by laying out the facts? Been there, done that... convince him ?
I really doubt you will manage that with an "argument" or pointing towards a score of reviews that say disagree with his opinion ;)
He'd have to play the game for that and actually try to look at the AI in an unbiased way.

In that light, the displayed hostily is not only unneeded, but also quite... unfortunate.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 06:53:57 am by Mikes »

 

Offline BloodEagle

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Epic lulz at the TrashMan bashing.  :wtf:  :no:

----

I find the AI in GalCiv 2 (Orig. and DA) to be lacking. Then again, I never clicked that 'use the rest of my CPU' button. Will that make the AI stop cheating?  :rolleyes:

 

Offline Mikes

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I find the AI in GalCiv 2 (Orig. and DA) to be lacking. Then again, I never clicked that 'use the rest of my CPU' button. Will that make the AI stop cheating?  :rolleyes:

With multicore options enabled, the AI uses more advanced predictive algorithms. When set to "Tough", the AI does not cheat. Period. It actually does not even treat the player any different than another AI race.
Yet it offers a fine challenge and uses a varied array of tactics and strategies. It's one of the most commented on and talked about features of the game.

As said before. It's not about difficulty. You can make a GalCiv2 game as easy or difficult as you want by selecting any kind of number of options. Enabling or disabling Tech trading. Playing against an AI alliance, making the AI Dumb on purpouse (i.e. preventing it from use most of its algorithms... which will actually cause complaints to you via diplomacy channels on occassion, giving you a message that points out how it would beat you "if its generals weren't that stupid" LOL) or even actually giving the AI ressource boni (i.e. allowing it to cheat) IF that is what you want. But difficulty is beside the point, complexity, variety and adaptability is what makes the AI in GalCiv2 so great.

It's pretty much the only AI that i know of, that is actually fun and challenging to play against, without it cheating. The strongest point here of course being that it isn't nearly as predictable as all the "stupid/regular/average/typical" AIs that rely on cheating to create any kind of challenge at all. (Talking about 4X games of course and ignoring any number of Chess programs heh.)

I'm building stabases inside another territory and it's not considered an act of war.

Why would it be an act of war? If an AI builds a starbase in your territory does that mean you automatically attack it? A starbase is a minor annoyance, but yes it actually is an annoyance that will get noticed. But noticed != determined stupid action. If you keep building enough starbases you can be certain it will have consequences - of some sort -, especially if the acrued influence threathens to flip one of the AIs planets.

But then it will still be an annoyance. If the annoyances outweight the benefits of your existence, it just might attack you IF it thinks it will benefit from such an attack. But a smaller empire would be outright stupid to risk war with a larger empire over a single planet threathening to flip via influence, or a larger empire might simply not care enough because it has other pressing concerns. so why should it automatically attack over a starbase ? Course they might bribe another race into attacking you without getting personally involved or try get an alliance together, if they feel they need backup. If you actually pay attention you will notice that the AI is well aware of the known relative military power of different empires and it WILL attempt to ally against the larger powers, instead of just helplessly running to its doom when its outmatched - and no matter if the player happens to be involved in one way or the other or not.

The fun things is that you don't really know because it's not as predictable as the usual AIs. It might actually already have decided to attack you and just wait till its attack fleet is finished so it can roll over you in some sort of Blitzkrieg. Had that happen once as i was still clueless about the game heh... all quiet for a while... and then i get a message detailing all kinds of longstanding grievances and concluding that they had decided to end my existence. Next turn i had multiple fleets all over my planets and 3 turns later 3/4th of my planets were invaded :p

Also, with several AI players, you can actually happen to have a quiet game if your empire is too small and nowhere near reaching a victory condition. Because the AI doesn't care if you are a player or not. AI Races will actively plot against the most powerful races and especially against those who get close to achieving any kind of victory condition. If you play against "tough" AIs and actually are perceived as a power to be worthy of attention you will quickly find out how nasty things can get LOL. It's especially kinda funny when you quickly try to  get close to a tech or ascension victory and suddenly you face an alliance of almost all the other AI players (except for the ones with really REALLY irreconcilable differences of course) who are annoyed with your attempt to win so easily ;)

And well... that's just a small glimpse at how it actually works..., there is a reason why people write so much GalCiv2 based fan fiction based on actual games vs. the AI... and especially why pretty much all of these stories are quite different.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 12:24:01 pm by Mikes »

 

Offline GTSVA

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Halo anyone?
What's up?

Freespace: Amit
Forums: GTSVA        
High Scores: Natroz

 

Offline Roanoke

  • 210
shesh enough of the AI fanboi-ism already.

I was a big fan of Halo in the day. I mean, when you shot down a Banshee it actually exploded, rather than some horrible .bmp or something.

 

Offline TrashMan

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I am pretty certain however that your argument here will not convince Trashman any more than mine did. Just watch lol.
Try prove him wrong by laying out the facts? Been there, done that... convince him ?

Display any real facts and I might be swayed.


I just owned the game - first in almost everything, no cheats, half the galaxy is mine, the other half are my allies. I didn't even use the "realod-after-something-bad-happens" (I was playing Iron Man style). Easy when the AI can be so easily exploited. And this is fresh start, I haven't touched this game since GalCiv2 came out.

By comparison, when playing SOTS, winning is very hard, even when constantly reloading (and after quite a lot of playing it before). SOTS AI doesn't cheat and it does adapt to your attacks.
How does that bode for your "brilliant AI" theory?


Quote
He'd have to play the game for that and actually try to look at the AI in an unbiased way.

I just did. That only lowered my oppinion, since it refreshed all the flaws.
I'm sorry, but AI that can be so easily exploited is not that good.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline TESLA

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getting back on track


Another great old game: Day of the Tentacle!!! Was deadly!!!

And let us not forget: Syndicate Wars (I played that for ages, just blowing everything up) such a fun game :)
In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced
to talk to God.

There are three types of people in this world: those who make things happen, those who watch things happen and those who wonder what happened.

 

Offline Mikes

  • 29
getting back on track

Another great old game: Day of the Tentacle!!! Was deadly!!!

And let us not forget: Syndicate Wars (I played that for ages, just blowing everything up) such a fun game :)

Fully agreed on both:) ... coincidentially, i hear EA s making a remake of Syndicate Wars...


Other (unrelated) games:
Sam & Max, for showing that adventures ain't dead yet LOL.


Display any real facts and I might be swayed.

If the arguments i made, together with countless reviews stating the very same thing don't convince you, then i won't bother anymore.
I could not disagree more with your opinion, but you know what they say about opinions ;)

I think we both made our cases and can leave it at that.
So i would agree with Tesla to get back on track.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 04:10:50 pm by Mikes »

 
There's no way you are going to convince TrashMan.  Just give up.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline TrashMan

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If the arguments i made, together with countless reviews stating the very same thing don't convince you, then i won't bother anymore.
I could not disagree more with your opinion, but you know what they say about opinions ;)

If reviews were considered proof, I could prove anything I want.



EDIT:
Syndicate Wars? A remake? By EA? I just felt a shiver go down my spine.

We can list any game, right?

How about  Battle for Wesnoth or Soldat? They are free, bu the are excellent!
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!