Author Topic: Advanced Dogfighting  (Read 15275 times)

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Re: Advanced Dogfighting
Chapter 2: Multi-ship combat and tactics.



Part 1: Communication.

Communication is the most important part of teamwork.

It is better to have too much communication than it is to have too little. Do not be afraid to and do not frown upon stating the obvious, as stating the obvious reinforces the awareness of the team. If it is significant, say something about it. When in doubt, say something anyway. Remember that each member of the team serves as another pair of eyes and ears for everyone else and information that seems insignificant to you may be very important to someone else. Voice communiation is highly recommended.

There are a few things you should always communicated to your teammates, these include:
-Am I on the offensive or defensive against an enemy ship?
-Who am I attacking?
-Who is attacking me?

If the answer to any of these changes then always inform the rest of your team. Everyone has to be aware of the situation of everyone else, otherwise effective teamwork becomes difficult.

In order to have effective communication you have to have a way for everyone to know who is saying what to whom. This is often overlooked and causes unnecessary confusion.

My preferred method of solving this problem is to put messeges into the form [reciever][sender],[message] so that everyone knows who is talking and who the message is intended for. If the reciever isn't stated then it is assumed to be the whole squad.

To get a better idea of how this should work, here is an example scenario:

Alpha 1: "Alpha 1, targeting Kappa 2."
Alpha 1: "Missile inbound, evading."
Alpha 1: "Alpha 1, taking fire from Kappa 3."
Alpha 2: "Alpha 1 Alpha 2, moving to attack Kappa 3."
(Alpha 2 swings in behind Kappa 3)
Alpha 2: "Alpha 1 Alpha 2, missile away."
(Alpha 1 reverses his turn, if Alpha 2 used primaries a different action would be taken, more on that later.)
(Kappa 3 breaks off and evades.)
Alpha 2: "Alpha 1 Alpha 2, your attacker has broken off.
(Alpha 1 turns hard and swings behind Kappa 3)
Alpha 1: "Alpha 2 Alpha 1, targeting Kappa 3."

You do not have to use the form depicted here. Use whatever terminology and shorthand you and your teammates can understand. Make sure the everyone know who is saying what to who and everyone can understand each other.

 
Is anyone still reading this?



Part 2: Some things worth remembering.

Before we get into more specific tactics involving multiple ships, we must go over some basic tactics and methods as well as some basic principles governing combat between multiple ships. Keep in mind that unless otherwise noted, "ship" refers to a fighter of similar performance to the one you are flying.

-Always deal with immediate threats first. If you're being shot at then defending yourself should be your top priority for the moment.

-Ships attacking other ships are always easier to kill. The best way to maneuver to attack another ship and the best way to maneuver to defend yourself are usually not the same. If given the choice between attacking a ship that doesn't have any current targets and attacking a ship that is currently attacking one of your friends, the latter will be an easier kill and it will help out your buddy as well. Keep in mind the same applies to you as well.

-The best way to keep a ship from attacking another ship is to attack that ship. This is another way of applying the above principle. If your current target chooses to constrain their maneuvers to attack another ship they will be an easy kill. Again, keep in mind the same applies to you as well.

-There is only room behind a ship for one other ship. In other words, you can and should only have one ship pursuing an enemy ship along the same plane of motion. Not only is it problematic to have more than one ship getting directly involved in a turning fight with a single enemy ship, it is pointless to do so. Of course, this does not mean that you cannot have more than one ship attacking a single enemy ship, you just should not have them taking the same pursuit path. More on this later.

-Unless otherwise occupied, always travel in pairs. The buddy system is good, and having someone to watch your back can make all the difference. Also, from a tactics perspective, just having one other ship with you greatly expands your options.

-Fighters do not multi-task well, divide up tasks whenever possible.

-Individual one-on-one dogfights are not done until one ship dies. As a rule of thumb, two ships go into a dogfight and only one ship comes out. If you break off from your current target without killing it to do something else, chances are that target will turn around and come after you. Normally you should only break off from your current target without killing it in order to defend yourself, again your own defense will take priority. Because fighters don't multitask well, this can become a problem if you have other more urgent objectives. However, there are a few exceptions and workarounds to this I'll get into later.

-Pick your fights wisely. With the above problem in mind, whenever you are not otherwise occupied and have a choice between potential fights, try to pick one that will yield the best results. Remember, once you're in a dogfight you're usually going to be stuck in it until you either kill your opponent or get killed yourself. Also, use some common sense, don't go off by yourself to engage an incoming wing of four enemy ships unless you know you can kill them easily, it would be better to help get one of your teammates out of their current dogfight and bring them with you.

-The attacker has the upper hand, but the defender controls the direction and pace of the fight. This becomes important in combat with multiple ships, especially if the defender is in communication with someone else who could potentially take out his attacker.

Also, remember that everything explained in the previous section still applies, and can lead to even more possibilities as you introduce more ships.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 11:46:10 am by paul1290 »

 

Offline eliex

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Is anyone still reading this?

Certainly. This guide is far too informative to be wasted.
As for Part 2, excellent points there. Normally  I assign my entire Alpha wing to guard me but in most missions (especially on the Hard difficulty) leaving few fighters spread overall is unwise.  :nod:

 

Offline General Battuta

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It's good stuff, but I find that FreeSpace combat is so fast-paced and free-wheeling that there's no way you could ever consciously apply these tactics. It's best to just internalize the important lessons and C-3-1 a lot (c-3-6ing as necessary.)

 

Offline Scotty

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The campaign would go a lot more smoothly with actual people who read and followed this guide.  Instead of the AI wingmen, I mean.  On any difficulty.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Co-op campaign is right there and mostly bug-free!

 
-Always deal with immediate threats first. If you're being shot at then defending yourself should be your top priority for the moment.

-Individual one-on-one dogfights are not done until one ship dies. As a rule of thumb, two ships go into a dogfight and only one ship comes out. If you break off from your current target without killing it to do something else, chances are that target will turn around and come after you.

There has to be a balance here, and it mostly depends on what you're flying. An assault fighter like a herc or an erenyes can definitely pursue until death, eating hits from the back. If you have a perseus, sometimes you have to learn to let the fleeing enemy go. You'll end up fighting back and forward but that's why you picked a super maneuverable, fast ship in the first place, right?  :D

I've gotten killed countless times for going after someone too long. Sometimes you just have to launch some harpoons, turn around to face YOUR pursuer, and hope to finish him off before your former prey comes back, assuming the missiles don't finish him off.

 

Offline Scotty

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In a gigantic furball of fighters, or with one vs. quite a few (Mystery of the Trinity, if you stay long enough, perhaps), it is actually beneficial to change targets because those targets will actually redistribute energy for pursuit, and neglect shields.  You can peg them in just a few shots then.

 

Offline Darius

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C-3-1 a lot (c-3-6ing as necessary.)

I usually Shift-A, 3 or Shift-P, 3. Two keystrokes are quicker than three :P

 

Offline General Battuta

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Whoa. Never knew about those!

 
There are a few things I probably should have made clear at the start of this guide.

It's important to remember that tactics are based on assumptions and they are only as strong as the assumptions you build them on. Basing your tactics on more basic your assumptions makes your tactics more durable, but it limits your options. On the flip side, basing your tactics on more complex assumptions give you more options, but it makes you tactics less durable.


Because of this, there are a few assumptions I do not use when writing these for various reasons:

-The skill of your opponent.
I do not make any assumptions about the skill of your opponent because I think such an assumption would be far too fragile. This means that I write these assuming that your opponent is of roughly equal skill to you. If your opponent is not as good as you are then you kill them faster. If your opponents are just as good then these should better your chances of defeating them. If you opponent is better then these will just make you live a bit longer.

-Your weapons:
I do not make any assumptions regard the weaponry you are carrying. Different people prefer different weapons and I think it's too impractical to come up with different tactics for different weapons. All I assume is that missiles have some kind of homing capability and that your primaries can hurt things in front of you. Obviously both are true most of the time which make these assumptions very durable.

-Your ship:
I don't make any assumptions about the ship you are flying. I assume both you and your opponent are flying more or less equally performing craft. Again, like weapons I think it's impractical to devise seperate tactics for different craft, at least within scope of this guide.

Basically any tactics that requires any of the above three assumptions to be made won't be put into this guide. That doesn't mean I think such tactics are bad, it just means they wouldn't fit into this guide without making it even longer and harder to read than it already is.





« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 09:39:37 pm by paul1290 »

 

Offline Kiloku

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I really like the guide and it did help me, but I got some questions:

1) I didn't really get what the lead turn is. When I'm approaching the enemy head-on, why would there be a turn? Surely there is a possibility this is done to avoid crashing, but mostly, if I'm the first to turn, the enemy would get on my tail, and surely he would be dumb to turn first too.. Mostly for me, head ons result in me overshooting the enemy and vice-versa.

2)The Multi-Ship combat part seems to assume everyone is human, while actually I'm the only human in game, everyone else is AI. And it also doesn't say what to do when outnumbered. In mission "Feint! Parry! Riposte!" from the retail campaign, I'm approaching with 3 wingmen a group of 6 enemy fighters, so it means that most of the time the enemy has 2 spare fighters to cover the others, so I can't ever chase an enemy for more than a second or 2 without taking heavy fire. (By the way, it's a heads on approach too)

3)Wouldn't it be better to have a chasing enemy inside my turn circle? That way if I make a tight turn, I'd be the one chasing him...
Potato!

 

Offline Scotty

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When I do head to heads, I put the ship in an outside spiral, so that you can actually dodge the missiles, instead of them hitting you even if you "evade" them.  I hate it when that happens :ick:.  If you keep it more or less random, it also really screws up even a good pilots targeting, because the lead indicator is most definitely not where you will be when the shots get there.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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One thing important to remember in space flight sims is that there is no down. Or if you want to think of some direction as "down", you should pick direction of enemy capital ship or group, because that would be a direction you want to avoid (similar to how in flight simulators you always want to be higher than your adversaries). Thinking that way you would perhaps have a better tendency to stay close to friendly capital ships which is a major help especially in higher difficulties. Always orienting your ship so that the FRED "plane" works as "ground level" is not beneficial at all and can hinder your situational awareness because subconsciously you're still thinking in terms of up and down when you do that.

First reason why this affects the combat is the lack of gravity. Lack of gravitational acceleration and hard deck to crash to both frees and limits tactical opportunities. First of all, energy tactics are largely negated. Ship speed is still important, but all ships perform the same at all locations, as opposed to high altitude fighters vs. low altitude fighters - say, Focke-Wulf FW-190 D-9 vs. Lavochkin La-7 fight would have vastly different outcome depending on starting positions and altitude. the FW-190 excels at high altitude and energy tactics, so it's pilot needs to fly it high and fast, dive on the opponents and pull back up after each firing run to convert kinetic energy back to potential energy. On the other hand, La-7 pilot has superior performance at below 3000 metres and also superior turn rate, so if he can jump the FW-190 pilot with "pants down" (ie. with low airspeed and altitude), the fight will be a short one to La-7's advantage.

No such things to consider in FreeSpace2 and other space simulators. Combined with the lack of accurate physics to speak of (conservation of momentum), FS2 tactics are not energy oriented at all. In games with more accurate physics modeling you could still utilize energy tactics if you have more acceleration than your target, but in FS2 the maximum speed of ships is what matters more. And in most cases the differences in that speed are not big enough to make "hit and run" tactics viable at all. That means extending (getting some distance between you and the enemy) usually doesn't work unless your enemy is willing to do it as well - however he would likely be a fool to turn his tail at a fleeing ship only slightly faster than his own! As a result - unless you're in a Horus against Ares or Ursa, running is pretty much equal to suicide in vast majority of occasions. And it opens the opportunity for your enemy to use missiles against you...

Another thing that lack of "down" changes is the perspective and flight dynamics which many people fail to acknowledge. Airplanes are designed to be turned so that you first roll to the direction you want to turn to (bank angle depending on the type of the turn), then pitch up to compensate for the loss of lift in order to stay at constant altitude, and use rudder to stay straight in relation to the air stream. Space ships in reality have to use other techniques to change their vector altogether, but in FS2, ships just turn where their nose is pointed and that opens a lot of options on how you can maneuver your craft. Regardless of this, vast majority of people that engage in turning dogfight tend to pitch up to follow the target, when they could just as easily pitch down (considering the lack of viewable cockpits) or yaw left or right. This tendency can make your flying easy to predict. Flying in more erratic and unpredictable manner will confuse your enemies and make it much harder for them to predict your flight path and stay on your tail, never mind landing shots at you. Remember to use the roll as well even though you don't technically need it for aiming and flying; it's much harder to aim at a target doing even a slow barrel roll than just turning.

Another thing you want to be able to do in a furball is to control your speed so as to not overshoot your opponent or collide with him... collisions in multiplayer are lethal. Personally I usually match the speed of the target, then map W to afterburner and S to rearward thrusters (the ones that slow your ship down).


Otherwise, I still find the Dicta Boelcke very much applicable to FS2 combat:

1. Try to secure the upper hand before attacking. If possible, keep the sun behind you.

As discussed, there are less things that can secure an advantage before engagement in FS2 than in real life aerial combat. The concept of energy in form of altitude is negated, so advantages would be the following:

-surprise
-performance
-numerical superiority

Surprise is basically exploiting someone's lack of situational awareness. This is difficult in FS2 because the targeting computer can target someone who's merely targeting you. That's why it's good to learn to use just the radar dots to engage enemy targets; you won't get to use aspect missiles, and you won't have primary lead indicator either, but you will not give any warning to the enemy before you're on top of him. Hopefully.

Performance includes all the stats and characteristics of your craft. Using your ship's aspects that have superior performance is key to using any ship effectively. Knowing what your ship can do better than the enemy ship is important, so study the stats and characteristics of each ship. Manueverability, speed, armour, weapons systems, energy system... knowing these can and will make a difference in your decisions on how to engage certain kinds of ships depending on what ship you are using.

Numerical superiority - d'oh. In combat of any sort, 2 >> 1+1 as long as you can work as a team instead of two individuals. You would be surprised at what a difference having a good wing man makes in IL-2 Sturmovik - I would imagine with some practice same would hold true for FS2 as well.

Position in the field of engagement can be a powerful advantage; using cruisers and corvettes for cover is very effective. Also, hiding in the sun is actually possible as long as you try to use surprise tactics by not targeting your target...

2. Always continue with an attack you have begun.

As discussed, turning your tail and running is usually not a viable option due to lack of usable energy tactics and small speed differences between the ships. When engaged in a furball, it's usually a fight to the end unless either participant has support coming.

3. Only fire at close range, and then only when the opponent is properly in your sights.

Holds true, but less than in the WWI and WWII aerial combat, as ammunition regenerates in form of energy. Still, you do not want to be missing a lot with double Kaysers. You'll end up running out of energy surprisingly soon that way. Also, spraying and praying will still possibly alert your target to your presence when you are attempting to sneak up on them.

On the other hand, FS2 damage modeling makes individual hits much less important than in reality and games such as Red Baron or IL-2 Sturmovik. If you score a few hits in the enemy in reality, there's a relatively high chance that it will destroy something important and the enemy will likely attempt to withdraw from the engagement as soon as possible and return to base to assess the damage. Subsystem damage modeling in FS2 is sort of futile attempt compared to, say, IL-2 damage modeling, and the most important factor remains health points (or structural integrity, whatever). And you need to score quite a few hits to the enemy before they go down, so in FS2 you can be somewhat more trigger-happy than if you were using ballistic ammo.

Interestingly, BtRL combat did in fact more closely resemble WW2 combat than FS2 combat - largely due to ballistic primaries.

4. You should always try to keep your eye on your opponent, and never let yourself be deceived by ruses.

Situational awareness...

5. In any type of attack, it is essential to assail your opponent from behind.

Potential for crude puns aside, this should be pretty simple - the best firing position is at six o'clock position. And you should plan your flight path so that you end up there, instead of the opposite. Lead pursuit, lag pursuit and true pursuit are fascinating theory but they are also more oriented for aerial combat. In FS2, when you're approacing an enemy from the side you most likely will take slight lead pursuit path by placing your targeting reticle on the lead indicator. This is very close to true pursuit though, due to the fact that primary weapons move fast. If you want to, say, intercept a group of bombers, you might want to aim a lot ahead of the group. You will need to estimate and adjust your vector so that your flight path will intercept the enemy's flight path at the same time, which will get you close to them in the fastest way possible - and time is usually of the essence in intercept missions. But I'm getting side tracked here - the point is, plan a bit ahead, but not too much, and keep adapting to the improving situation. Your main goal in a fur ball is always to get behind your opponent and then stay there until he's toast.


6. If your opponent dives on you, do not try to get around his attack, but fly to meet it.

Again, with lack of altitude differences, this can be simplified to head-on approaches; however, while still not in a furball you should consider whether or not you should offer combat with the enemy flying towards you at all. You could head for reinforcements if you are in inferior ship, or if in equal or better maneuverable ship, commit to the head-on pass and following fur ball. If the enemy is already in gun range, running away is not usually a viable option though.

7. When over the enemy's lines, never forget your own line of retreat.

In FreeSpace combat with no significant front lines this is not really that significant, especially as you usually don't finish missions by landing at home base. Nevertheless, situational awareness of the general locations of friendly forces is beneficial because you can flee there in some cases. Slaying Ravana is a very good example of this; the Sobek gives your bomber wing a very good cover that you can use to regroup and get rid of enemies at your tail. Provided you can find it in the mess and you haven't positioned the Ravana between yourself and it... which again demonstrates the importance of situational awareness.

8. Tip for Squadrons: In principle, it is better to attack in groups of four or six. Avoid two aircraft attacking the same opponent.

This was a bit outdated by the second world war, and in fact the Finnish Air Force tactics utilized pairs of planes forming larger flights. Having a wing man to cover your ass is very beneficial, as you can concentrate on offense and your wingman will cover you and keep you aware of enemies trying to get to your tail, so you know when to disengage.

The underlying message still holds true though; it's better always to have company than fly alone.

Not shooting at same target at same time should be obvious, but some people remain oblivious to the fact that there is no such thing as friendly fire - it all kills you just the same.

In short, shoot at the ship at your wingman's six, not the one at his twelve. Shoulder shooting is one of the most annoying things to encounter in multiplayer flight combat. Granted, it's not quite as lethal in FS2_Open as it can be in IL-2 Sturmovik - what with mid-air collisions being pretty much certain death in that game - but still annoying and waste of effort that could be spent in better team work.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 12:35:37 pm by Herra Tohtori »
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline General Battuta

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I'd add to Rule 1 up there that you should always try to engage near a friendly warship (though watch the darn beams on Insane/Realistic difficulty.)

 

Offline Dilmah G

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I'd say that ties into Rule 7. Since friendly AAA would've helped both now and then, and to a lesser extent, the possibility of rescue/somewhere to "Set her down".

 
I really like the guide and it did help me, but I got some questions:

1) I didn't really get what the lead turn is. When I'm approaching the enemy head-on, why would there be a turn? Surely there is a possibility this is done to avoid crashing, but mostly, if I'm the first to turn, the enemy would get on my tail, and surely he would be dumb to turn first too.. Mostly for me, head ons result in me overshooting the enemy and vice-versa.

2)The Multi-Ship combat part seems to assume everyone is human, while actually I'm the only human in game, everyone else is AI. And it also doesn't say what to do when outnumbered. In mission "Feint! Parry! Riposte!" from the retail campaign, I'm approaching with 3 wingmen a group of 6 enemy fighters, so it means that most of the time the enemy has 2 spare fighters to cover the others, so I can't ever chase an enemy for more than a second or 2 without taking heavy fire. (By the way, it's a heads on approach too)

3)Wouldn't it be better to have a chasing enemy inside my turn circle? That way if I make a tight turn, I'd be the one chasing him...


1.
You're not actually turning to pass in front of your opponent, your turning so that you pass behind your opponent.

It might be a bit clearer if I use a more specific example.

Suppose your going head on into your opponent and he is on you left, and you are on his left (there's no up and down in space but for the sake of simplicity in this example you both have the same up). You want to start your turn left just before passing your opponent, but you're not trying to pass in front of your opponent, you're trying to pass behind your opponent. Ideally you will turn so that you are behind your opponent while pointing as close to a right angle to him as possible. This means assuming your opponent goes straight ahead and doesn't change direction or speed, you're opponent will be to your left facing away from you (obviously if he is on your right just flip the directions). Obviously your opponent will not let you get this ideal position, but I find it easier to visualise the lead turn as an attempt to get into this position. After that you continue your turn in the same direction as tightly as possible and it should place you behind your opponent or at least get you into a position where it will be easy to get behind your opponent. Keep in mind that it is better to roll to the side and pitch up to make your lead turn. For some reason the Yaw axis in Freespace does some wierd things if you turn more than a few degrees using it.

If your opponent goes straight then you'll be behind him as you come around your turn. If he turns the opposite way you'll also be behind him. If he goes up or down relative to your turn then you can simply go up or down to follow as you come around. Basically the only way your opponent can effectively counter this, short of tricking you somehow (which can happen sometimes so try to pay attention to what he's doing), is to attempt the same maneuver to counteract yours.

Why it works is actually a tad more complicated than that, but that should be enough for you to do it properly.



2.
Well with AI opponents they're generally not smart enough to do much interesting with, so in that case there's not much to say. I assume human teammates because that's something that I can actually write about (there's co-op in Freespace).


3.
If you're opponent is inside your turn circle then by that means that you can't turn tight enough to face him without a drastic change in speed, and even then if he's matching your speed it won't work. If you could turn tight enough to face him then he's not really inside your turn circle, because your turn circle would be much smaller.


-Always deal with immediate threats first. If you're being shot at then defending yourself should be your top priority for the moment.

-Individual one-on-one dogfights are not done until one ship dies. As a rule of thumb, two ships go into a dogfight and only one ship comes out. If you break off from your current target without killing it to do something else, chances are that target will turn around and come after you.

There has to be a balance here, and it mostly depends on what you're flying. An assault fighter like a herc or an erenyes can definitely pursue until death, eating hits from the back. If you have a perseus, sometimes you have to learn to let the fleeing enemy go. You'll end up fighting back and forward but that's why you picked a super maneuverable, fast ship in the first place, right?  :D

I've gotten killed countless times for going after someone too long. Sometimes you just have to launch some harpoons, turn around to face YOUR pursuer, and hope to finish him off before your former prey comes back, assuming the missiles don't finish him off.


I do see what you're saying and it's a bit of poor wording on my part. I thought it would be clear that the defense would take priority over staying with your target, so I didn't think it was necessary to add that little caveat. I'll probably add that in to prevent further confusion.


Another thing that lack of "down" changes is the perspective and flight dynamics which many people fail to acknowledge. Airplanes are designed to be turned so that you first roll to the direction you want to turn to (bank angle depending on the type of the turn), then pitch up to compensate for the loss of lift in order to stay at constant altitude, and use rudder to stay straight in relation to the air stream. Space ships in reality have to use other techniques to change their vector altogether, but in FS2, ships just turn where their nose is pointed and that opens a lot of options on how you can maneuver your craft. Regardless of this, vast majority of people that engage in turning dogfight tend to pitch up to follow the target, when they could just as easily pitch down (considering the lack of viewable cockpits) or yaw left or right. This tendency can make your flying easy to predict. Flying in more erratic and unpredictable manner will confuse your enemies and make it much harder for them to predict your flight path and stay on your tail, never mind landing shots at you. Remember to use the roll as well even though you don't technically need it for aiming and flying; it's much harder to aim at a target doing even a slow barrel roll than just turning.

I want to add to this that it helps to be cautious about using yaw for turns of more than 90 degrees.

Yaw in Freespace for some reason doesn't seem to result in a flat turn, but it has a slow roll in there as well. If you're going to use yaw for a turn of more than a few degrees then you might have to compensate for this.






« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 11:53:58 am by paul1290 »

 

Offline deathfun

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This is a rather interesting guide

However, my methods of dogfighting in space are far simpler compared to this and work just fine.




Good read though, intrigued to see more


"No"

 

Offline Killer Whale

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This is a rather interesting guide
However, my methods of dogfighting in space are far simpler compared to this and work just fine.
Good read though, intrigued to see more
Point and shoot, very easy, invulnerable, friendly SSJ if it's just too hard, another couple of wings of friendly fighters. If it's really hard, which it should never be.

 

Offline deathfun

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Well... it's more of a 'aim and shoot'

I'll keep my tactics for when I am flying a P-51 in WWII
"No"