Author Topic: Explanation of Subspace  (Read 14468 times)

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Offline Snail

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
Hmm, makes a lot of sense actually.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
But fails to account for the observed use of it in FS2, which suggests tracking is only possible if the ship was observed to jump.
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Offline Droid803

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
See, I always took the "tracking" term to be far more literal, i.e. having the ability to find out where a ship is now and where it's going to.  Even without the subspace synchronization issue, that would make the Ancient data invaluable.  It's no good knowing that the Lucifer could be destroyed in a subspace tunnel if one has no idea where it is at the present time, or what series of jumps it'll be using to get to Sol.  The Terran and Vasudan fleets were completely backed against the wall by the end of the campaign; they presumably didn't have the resources to institute any sort of meaningful blockade around the node (or nodes, as the case may be) to Earth.  There was also the devilish issue of the Lucifer's history of using unstable and/or completely unknown nodes to jump between systems.  Notice that it was only after the Ancient technology was discovered that Command learned that the Lucifer was heading to Sol via Sirus and Delta Serpentis, which gave them the opportunity they needed to put the Bastion in position to execute a last-ditch strike against it.

Well, I never said anything about it not being able to find out. I'm just saying that without the tracking data they would not be able to get into the same tunnel at all, otherwise the GTA/PVN could have just attacked the Lucifer in subspace BEFORE they had the tracking tech. I remember this being discussed before somewhere and the conclusion was that the only way there isnt; a plothole is if that the GTA/PVN could not get into the same tunnel or something.

With the search function being broken and all not sure if I'll be able to find that thread...
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
I created a very elaborate explanation for subspace in my old Starforce mod, which I still use most of today. Keep in mind that this description is intended to come from more than a thousand years after FreeSpace 2, so it references technologies that do not exist in FreeSpace 1 or 2.

In simple terms, subspace is the 'filling' that the space-time membrane of the universe rests on. Imagine an extremely wrinkled and distorted sphere. The interior of this sphere would be subspace, and the outer 'skin' the universe we exist in. The convolutions in space-time and the nature of subspace mean that a few minutes' travel through subspace can cover hundreds if not thousands of light years.

However, one cannot just enter subspace at a whim. The 'thickness' of the space-time membrane makes it impossible to transition into subspace except under certain conditions, and, furthermore, subspace is saturated with a seemingly limitless 'energy soup' that would annihilate any physical objects within subspace (this energy-rich ether is the source of the swirling glow associated with all forms of subspace use). Subspace nodes solve both of these problems.

A subspace node creates a corridor of realspace through subspace, connecting two points in the universe. Naturally-occurring subspace nodes are extremely unstable, collapsing within seconds of their formation. However, the more traffic passes through a subspace node, the more stable and permanent it becomes. A well-maintained node can exist indefinitely.

There are estimated to be several million permanent or semi-permanent subspace nodes linking star systems in the Milky Way galaxy. Of these, over 1.5 million have been charted. The origin of the vast majority of these long-lasting nodes is unknown, and historical record indicates they have been in use by other civilizations for millennia before humans developed spaceflight. Theories that the ancient, long-vanished Shivan race created these nodes has been mostly discredited--the Shivans could not have had an empire of millions of systems, even before their war with the Zica, and, at any rate, the Shivans sterilized every planet they ever inhabited to wipe out all Zica presence in this galaxy, and the number and distribution of devastated worlds does not support such theories.

Subspace nodes can be artificially generated with the correct calculations, a large amount of energy, and a subspace drive. Most spacecraft can only create very short nodes, usually no more than 10 light-years, on their own, but larger starships can travel hundreds or even thousands of light-years without a pre-existing subspace node. Most artificial nodes have a lifespan of an hour or less. Passing additional ships through them can prolong their existence.

Dedicated subspace portals, while expensive and energy-intensive, are a more permanent solution for the creation of subspace nodes. Each portal is composed of multiple counter-rotating components that together create powerful subspace distortions. The first portal discovered by human beings was encountered in 2367, and named Knossos. After the Second Great War, humanity began building their own portals based on the design of Knossos, the first reconnecting Delta Serpentis to Sol in 2391. Portals that are used enough can create permanent subspace nodes, such as the Delta Serpentis-Sol node, which continues to exist long after the portal was dismantled.

The most advanced known use of subspace for technology is subspace rifts. This extremely dangerous form technology involves opening a hole in realspace that, instead of tunneling a node through subspace, opens directly into subspace itself, releasing minute qualities of the extremely energetic ether. The energy density of this ether is greater than even the most advanced antimatter applications. By carefully controlling the subspace rift and the release of ether, one can use it for power generation, or the technology can be used as a weapon--for instance, a bomb that tears open subspace, annihilating any nearby matter, or the subspace rift effect used by the Shivan Sathanas fleet in 2367 to destroy the star Capella and its entire solar system (widely believed at the time to be a supernova, it was actually a massive eruption of energy from subspace itself whose expanding blast front atomized the star and hurled its remains into space). The problem with this is that even the smallest lapse of control can cause a benign energy generator to become a bomb of colossal proportions. However, subspace power generation has one incredible advantage--as it taps the infinite, self-replicating energy ether of subspace, drawing power from beyond our own universe, it is not bound by the law of conservation of energy, which means that we could draw power from subspace literally forever. Untold billions of years hence, if there are any human beings left in the universe, subspace rift technology will be their lifeline, allowing humanity to flourish indefinitely even as the cosmos cools and dies around them.


The intrasystem jumps in FS1 and FS2 I imagine as being ships creating their own nodes to hop a few hundred million miles through space. It would be effectively useless as a method for interstellar transportation because (a) trajectory calculations lose precision with increasing distance from large gravity wells which serve as "landmarks" to orient realspace to subspace, and (b) attempting to form a node more than a couple of times would rapidly deplete a ship's fuel supply.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 03:59:58 pm by Woolie Wool »
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Offline Droid803

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
Found that thread:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,61302.0.html
EDIT: ehh...might not have been that one after all...that was just me...

Ok, so as long as you can't engage the Lucifer properly without tracking then there isn't a problem. Otherwise, the Altair thing would be completely unnecessary, Vasuda Prime could have been saved, etc...
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 04:00:43 pm by Droid803 »
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
I always imagined that subspace tracking had two purposes, (a) to catch up with enemy ships more than one jump away by figuring out what route they're taking, and (b) figuring out where a ship that made an intrasystem jump is going. Without subspace tracking, the Bastion would have no idea what route the Lucifer was taking to get to Sol, and thus they wouldn't be able to catch the Lucifer with the extremely narrow window of opportunity (<10 minutes) required to destroy her in subspace. Remember, it's not about just jumping to Delta Serpentis, it's about jumping into Delta Serpentis right on top of the Lucifer just as she is about to enter the Delta Serpentis-Sol node. And you can't wait by the node for the Lucifer to arrive either because she is invincible in realspace and if you set an ambush she will have all the time in the world to tear you a new fighterbay and then enter the node. The Bastion had to know the exact time and place of each jump the Lucifer made and the destination.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
Well, I never said anything about it not being able to find out. I'm just saying that without the tracking data they would not be able to get into the same tunnel at all, otherwise the GTA/PVN could have just attacked the Lucifer in subspace BEFORE they had the tracking tech. I remember this being discussed before somewhere and the conclusion was that the only way there isnt; a plothole is if that the GTA/PVN could not get into the same tunnel or something.
Remember that, even though the GTA had no idea that Shivan shields, particularly those of the Lucifer, were non-functional in subspace, they were perfectly aware that their own ships' shields were.  As such, any engagement against Shivan forces in a subspace corridor would be seen as suicidal at best.  Simply put, the GTA/PVN never tried to attack the Lucifer before obtaining tracking technology because they saw no reward, yet a massive amount of risk, in doing so.  Also keep in mind that, before the Ursa/Harbinger combination, nothing in the GTA arsenal was powerful enough to bring down a ship of the Lucifer's magnitude.

And that addition about a node ambush is a good point, Woolie.  Even if the GTA or PVN could commit ships to any sort of a blockade, they'd have no inclination to do so, since the Lucifer could utterly annihilate them without suffering so much as a scratch before proceeding to jump unimpeded.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
Their own shield technology is at the very least partially Shivan.
There is gain in any engagement against Shivan forces in a subspace corridor. Shivan fighter hulls are very weak, and I would definitely be willing to risk a fighter wing or two just to find out if I can press that advantage, or if it exists at all. Information on your enemy is important, I don't see why the GTA/PVN wouldn't have tried, especially when trying to hold the Lucifer off Vasuda Prime.

If everything goes into the same tunnel, they could have just sent some fighters after the Lucifer there, or even some from the other end.

And that addition about a node ambush is a good point, Woolie.  Even if the GTA or PVN could commit ships to any sort of a blockade, they'd have no inclination to do so, since the Lucifer could utterly annihilate them without suffering so much as a scratch before proceeding to jump unimpeded.

The Lucifer could have done that, but it was shown that it did not when proceeding to Sol.
It could have turned around, vaporized the Bastion, Alpha wing, and the entire pursuit force before heading off, but it just went straight for Sol without giving a second thought. The Lucifer had ample opportunity - it could even have ambushed the Bastion instead of the SD Tanatlus. It would have been ALL OVER then.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 05:47:33 pm by Droid803 »
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
Shivans are not known for their caution. They were probably absolutely sure that the Tantalus could deal with the Bastion herself, as a Demon is a far more powerful vessel than an Orion. By the time the Bastion had engaged the Lucifer they had probably already made final jump preprarations and it was too late to turn back.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Offline Droid803

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
Or they may have thought that the GTA/PVN didn't know how to stop them at all and were just acting out of desperation...(following the Lucifer that is).

I just realized how impossible it is to actually come to any conclusion :/
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
I always imagined that subspace tracking had two purposes, (a) to catch up with enemy ships more than one jump away by figuring out what route they're taking, and (b) figuring out where a ship that made an intrasystem jump is going.

Which again doesn't jibe with evidence on how it works from FS2, which suggests you must observe the ship to jump to track it. More to the point, shadowing the Lucifer in that manner ought to be terribly simple; set a couple Valkyries to stare at a node from a few hundred klicks out. They can still track at that range, and engaging them is pointless if they just evade. Confirming the Lucifier's route would have been child's play. The only danger existed from it using nodes the GTA/PVN were not aware of. Once it was confirmed to be moving towards Delta Serpentis then the intercept point was painfully obvious; the only real risk was the possiblity that the Lucifier would use a node somewhere before Delta Serpentis that linked to Sol.

Remember that, even though the GTA had no idea that Shivan shields, particularly those of the Lucifer, were non-functional in subspace, they were perfectly aware that their own ships' shields were.

Or not. Recall that only fightercraft are shielded; it is not until much later in the game they are a capable of performing an intersystem jump, and the near-instantanous jumps of fightercraft in intrasystem journeys it's doubtful that anyone noticed. Given that fighters always arrive with full shielding, it may not have been realized that shields collapse in subspace until around either the triple-node-convoy system, or even up until the Galatea sent her wings to escort the Omega transports.

In fact, given that the GTA's shield gear was amostly certainly heavily Shivan derived, they would have been fools not to assume Shivan shields did not work in subspace.

As such, any engagement against Shivan forces in a subspace corridor would be seen as suicidal at best.

Since they really ought to know Shivan designs don't work in subspace, the situation is actually quite the opposite. The GTA/PVN are fielding fighter lineups that were designed specifically to survive in a shieldless environment, and the Shivans are not. The tech room repeatedly notes that Shivan craft have relatively weak hulls and small secondary-weapon bays in comparison. Secondaries are murderous in a shieldless environment and GTA craft are better-built.

Even before the advent of shields, for that matter, GTA/PVN fightercraft proved able to successfully engage Shivan fighters. You spent a whole convoy mission doing that across a good fifteen klicks.

They should have been attempting subspace engagements from as soon as they comprehended how shields work. The fact they did not, and in fact considered them impossible, is telling. Even if your assumptions are correct, certain critical operations like the capture of the Taranis would be worth the risk. Yet, if the Taranis jumped, it was considered gone and unpursueable.
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
I always imagined that subspace tracking had two purposes, (a) to catch up with enemy ships more than one jump away by figuring out what route they're taking, and (b) figuring out where a ship that made an intrasystem jump is going.

Which again doesn't jibe with evidence on how it works from FS2, which suggests you must observe the ship to jump to track it. More to the point, shadowing the Lucifer in that manner ought to be terribly simple; set a couple Valkyries to stare at a node from a few hundred klicks out. They can still track at that range, and engaging them is pointless if they just evade. Confirming the Lucifier's route would have been child's play. The only danger existed from it using nodes the GTA/PVN were not aware of. Once it was confirmed to be moving towards Delta Serpentis then the intercept point was painfully obvious; the only real risk was the possiblity that the Lucifier would use a node somewhere before Delta Serpentis that linked to Sol.
The problem is if you send scout Valkyries out, then the Shivans know you are watching them and will do everything in their power to make sure you stop watching them. If the Shivans caught scouts they would likely have jumped away and come back later, leaving you with no idea when they made the jump or whether or not they took a different node entirely. Using subspace tracking you can observe every single jump they make, by intersystem node or otherwise (the "otherwise" is especially important), allowing you to plot out their route.

Quote
In fact, given that the GTA's shield gear was amostly certainly heavily Shivan derived, they would have been fools not to assume Shivan shields did not work in subspace.
No. What is foolish is to expect that their highly advanced shield systems are subject to the same limitations as your far more primitive shields. The fact that they were after all was good for the GTA and a very fortuitous occasion when it was discovered, but it would not have been expected.

Quote
Even before the advent of shields, for that matter, GTA/PVN fightercraft proved able to successfully engage Shivan fighters. You spent a whole convoy mission doing that across a good fifteen klicks.
They were able to engage Shivan fighters, but only at a significant disadvantage. Were all the combatants given human-equivalent intelligence, the GTA would have probably lost two fighters for every Shivan fighter shot down and expended a large number of men and machines to save that convoy (and thus we should treat that as the actual case because magical godlike superpilots with built-in character shields do not exist in reality).

Quote
They should have been attempting subspace engagements from as soon as they comprehended how shields work. The fact they did not, and in fact considered them impossible, is telling. Even if your assumptions are correct, certain critical operations like the capture of the Taranis would be worth the risk. Yet, if the Taranis jumped, it was considered gone and unpursueable.
Considering the above point that only an idiot assumes that a race centuries in advance of your technology has the same limitations as your vastly inferior knockoff of their technology merged with primitive energy shielding technologies of your own design, they probably did not want to throw away the lives and craft of their (by this point rapidly dwindling) pilots on chasing a cruiser surrounded by what they could only assume were fully functional Shivan fighters that would have ripped the GTA fighters to pieces.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Offline Droid803

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
GTA/PVN shields are vastly inferior to Shivan ones?
It doesn't seem that way. They don't differ too much in strength.
Yes, Shivan shields are superior, but from pure specs, they aren't that much than GTA/PVN ones that they would appear to be using an entirely different principle.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
I seem to recall points-wise that GTA ships are, on average, better shielded than their Shivan equivalents, but they more than make up the gap with armour (or possibly recharge speed).

 

Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
Uh, yes they do. FS1 Terran shields were around half the strength of Shivan equivalents. And though they do have more armor, compare, say, the Ulysses to the Dragon and there's still a disparity. And it only got bigger when later fighters and bombers like the Herc and Medusa started cutting back on armor.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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--General Battuta

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
Ahhh.. I spent more time in the FS2 tables, so I may have got confused :)

That's makes perfect sense for Freespace 1, since we'd literally only just stolen the tech from the Shivans' and were actually quite surprised when it worked, so it was a very under-developed tech at the time.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
And that is because they're using it on craft that were never designed to have shields in the first place!
You can't expect something that has an extra system it was never designed to operate to run anywhere near as efficiently as something designed to run it if both are using the same tech.
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
And that is because they're using it on craft that were never designed to have shields in the first place!

Only for a while. The Herc is pretty flimsy without shields, barely tougher than an Apollo.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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--General Battuta

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
And the Hercs shields are around 2/3rds that of its Shivan equivalent, the Basilisk. Not half.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Explanation of Subspace
Well, when it came to armor, the Shivans always were ridiculously ahead of the GTA and Vasudan ships, just look at the Moloch and compare the hitpoints with the Deimos in Freespace 2 for an example with capships.