Author Topic: MechWarrior Online  (Read 159248 times)

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Offline Scotty

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
Actually, that's highly debatable. But I best not get into that.

It's not debateable in BattleTech.  There is a reason the 'Mech is the king of the battlefield in that continuity.

And again, I'm talking about design reality, not informed ability. If game/novel/movie X tells me that Z is the greatest sword in the universe, and yet  I see that it's design is logicly abysmal, then it's impossibly for me to take that seriously.

Reality check: Tanks are highly mobile. Take a look at abrams. It's fast, can cross over all kinds of terrain, has a low profile. It also has a very low surface pressure for it's weight and size, meaning it can cross terrains a mech would have big trouble with.


But I digress.
My whole point was that from a logical standpoint, mechs are less reliable than tanks.


EDIT:  Damn laptop, posted before I typed anything. :(

Unreality check:  You know, because it's a game, with magical armor and unrealistically reduced ranges.

Second, try to build a tank under BattleTech rules.  The best thing you can come up with will weigh 100 tons, but will be horribly slow because in BT, engines weigh 1.5 time normal in vehicles.  Then it can suffer a crit on every shot that hits.  'Mechs don't have that little caveat.  To top it all off, if a vehicle loses one section (i.e. left side, rear, etc.), then it is considered destroyed.

When you try to assert that vehicles are better, then systematically ignore all the flaws of said vehicles in the same continuity in favor of comparisons that favor modern technology, the argument is inherently flawed.

That said:  There isn't going to be much more talk on the new game, because there isn't any news coming out on it.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 03:14:50 pm by Scotty »

 

Offline mxlm

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
Unreality check:  You know, because it's a game, with magical armor and unrealistically reduced ranges.

I sometimes wonder what BT fluff would look like if they'd simply never given us hard numbers for ranges. That is, if medium lasers had a maximum range of nine hexes and no we won't tell you what that converts to in meters. Likewise, if they'd never told us turns are six seconds.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
"BigDog is funded by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency in the hopes that it will be able to serve as a robotic pack mule to accompany soldiers in terrain too rough for conventional vehicles. Instead of wheels or treads, BigDog uses four legs for movement, allowing it to move across surfaces that would defeat wheels"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BigDog

I'm pretty sure that means that tanks can't go everywhere.

You do realise BigDog is intended to follow soldiers trough forests and into buildings, up the stairs? It's small, designed to carry equipment into tight places, it's not designed as a big combat unit.


Second, try to build a tank under BattleTech rules.  The best thing you can come up with will weigh 100 tons, but will be horribly slow because in BT, engines weigh 1.5 time normal in vehicles.  Then it can suffer a crit on every shot that hits.  'Mechs don't have that little caveat.  To top it all off, if a vehicle loses one section (i.e. left side, rear, etc.), then it is considered destroyed.

When you try to assert that vehicles are better, then systematically ignore all the flaws of said vehicles in the same continuity in favor of comparisons that favor modern technology, the argument is inherently flawed.

Ah. Thanks for proving my point. That the continuity makes little sense even within itself. Vecihle engines magicly weigh a whole lot more than they should be and are underpowered exactly why? Can suffer a crit on every shot exactly why? To make mechs sound better. there's no real logical explanation behind it.
 
The continutiy can tell me that the best gun in the universe has a curved, U shaped barrel that send the projectile back towards whoever fires it. It can't tell me to take it seriously at all if it claims something like that.
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Offline Roanoke

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
The whole point of tanks (and other heavy stuff) having tracks is to spread the weight of the whicle over a larger surface area, rather than 4 specific points as with wheels. For a Heavy/Assault Mech to focus so much weight on just one or two points (ie; the feet) would surely be a problem in swamp or similar soft terrain.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 02:41:09 pm by Roanoke »

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
Quote
Ah. Thanks for proving my point. That the continuity makes little sense even within itself. Vecihle engines magicly weigh a whole lot more than they should be and are underpowered exactly why? Can suffer a crit on every shot exactly why? To make mechs sound better. there's no real logical explanation behind it.
 
The continutiy can tell me that the best gun in the universe has a curved, U shaped barrel that send the projectile back towards whoever fires it. It can't tell me to take it seriously at all if it claims something like that.

I did not prove your point.  If anything, you proved mine with this, because you once again ignored everything but your pre-formed opinion.

The continuity makes sense in the context of the game.  Which I once again point out is a game.  The problem with that analogy at the end is that analogy makes no sense, continuity notwithstanding.  Obviously, the best weapon is the one that fires the highest damage shot for the best heat-tradeoff.  If some poor bastard in universe things the reverse, then he is indeed a poor bastard.

Also, said U-shaped barrel weapon could indeed be the best weapon in the game based on the standards above.  That said, if it doesn't fire at the enemy, the point is moot.  The point is not moot simply because you refuse to indulge in a resonable suspension of disbelief.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
This has nothing to do with suspension of disbelief.

You're so stuck on that continuity you're unable to see anything else. I'm looking at the bigger picture here. In universe, anything that is said to be canon stands. So much is true for any game universe everywhere. That however, doesn't mean that it makes logical sense.
Pointing that out doesn't mean I can't enjoy games like that. (or that I don't like em) Get out of the fanboy-defense mode.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
I do think Trashman has a point here.

However, Trash, you should also remember that the BTverse has made a number of advances in materials sciences which give Mechs an edge. If, in real life, we came up with myomer fibers, it's very possible that 'Mechs would be explored as a tactical option. The big disadvantages are the legs and the much higher target profile, but on the other hand, they're more nimble than an Abrams just by virtue of their means of transit.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
They'd still need conventional support in my opinon no matter the advances made.. This discussion just got re-interesting :nod:
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
However, Trash, you should also remember that the BTverse has made a number of advances in materials sciences which give Mechs an edge. If, in real life, we came up with myomer fibers, it's very possible that 'Mechs would be explored as a tactical option. The big disadvantages are the legs and the much higher target profile, but on the other hand, they're more nimble than an Abrams just by virtue of their means of transit.

You really think that any engine capable of moving a huge mech on 2 feet would move a tank any slower?
You do realise a 70 ton Abrams tank can reach 97 km/h if pushed? Any new technolgoy is rarely restricted to just one thing or veichle.

But again, I digress. Are there any more news? Aside from those really short teasers I didn't find anything else on the internets. You'd figure a screenshot from in-game would be nice.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
Tanks by definition use a set of wheels with axles turning a big ol' tread. You can't put myomer to use in there. Mechs, on the other hand, have a human-style musculature, and if you doubt that there are a few advantages to legs mobility-wise, compare a human's versatility to that of a Segway.  :p

Of course I'm aware of the Abrams' high top speed.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
You do realise a 70 ton Abrams tank can reach 97 km/h if pushed?

And yet can't make it useful. That speed is only even possible over a flat ground and tears it up to the point a wheeled vehicle would find it difficult to follow. Attempting it over any kind of rough terrain is just abusing the electronics; you wouldn't be able to fire accurately even with the stablization.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
Also, 'Mechs have the advantage in acceleration.  It only takes a few steps to get to running, while it takes a bit for a vehicle going flat out to reach its maximum speed.

Quote
But again, I digress. Are there any more news? Aside from those really short teasers I didn't find anything else on the internets. You'd figure a screenshot from in-game would be nice.

Terribly sorry, did I not post these here?

Video #1
Video #2 (this is just the first one with commentary)
Q and A Page
Reveal Article
Teh Pictures

 

Offline Leeko

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
Not sifting through 16 pages of text, so I'm sorry if this has become off-topic, but here's my opinion.
I think the RPG elements that the devs were discussing could breathe a whole lot of life into the game - and possibly prevent me from going straight to an assault 'mech as soon as possible :P - but development for the PC and 360 worries me a little. It will take a team of miracle workers to get anything to work equally on both, given the nature of Mechwarrior's gameplay. I don't see the controls working well on a 360, and if they dumbed it down to appeal to 360 owners*cough*mechassault*cough* then playing it on the PC wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable (the PC being my first choice for video games, though I do own both). Though the wisdom of the developers is shown in their hesitation to commit to a publisher; they're being careful not to end up with a publisher like EA who will irrevocably alter the developers' vision (read: Spore). I'm slightly disappointed that it takes place 35 years before the Clan invasion (Jade Falcon for life!) but I can see how it makes sense since they're rebooting the series. I hope they make one from a clan viewpoint, MW is still my favorite (and was my first) PC game of all time. :nod:

Rather than it being like one of the other MW games, I hope the developers make their own way of bringing the 31st century to the 21st century (on a side note, I disagree with the abundant criticism of MW4). And with the aforementioned RPG elements, as well as planned continuous online co-op campaign play, I'm excited regardless... my lance is already assembled, and we're planning to have weekly Mechwarrior meetings a la D&D. Now, I just hope they bring back that good old computer voice from MW2...

All systems nominal!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 04:27:49 pm by Leeko »

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
I would link you to any of ten other discussions about this in other forums, but if you didn't read a piddling little 16 page thread, you wouldn't read those.

Quote
but development for the PC and 360 worries me a little. It will take a team of miracle workers to get anything to work equally on both, given the nature of Mechwarrior's gameplay. I don't see the controls working well on a 360, and if they dumbed it down to appeal to 360 owners*cough*mechassault*cough* then playing it on the PC wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable (the PC being my first choice for video games, though I do own both)

We had a rather rousing discussion about the "dumbing it down" fear on the CBT forums.  The 360 has a lot more buttons than you think, and all the essentials can fit on it easily.*  Indeed, dumbing it down for the console players may be counter productive in both areas, because I sure as hell would hate it.  And no matter what rumors you hear, this isn't MechAssault.  

* by essentials, I mean:
  • Selecting weapon groups
  • 2 axes of movement and 2 axis of view [forward/backward, left/right and up/down, left/right]
  • Firing weapons
  • Firing more than one weapon group
  • Launching those sensor drones
  • Alpha Strike
  • Jumpjets
  • 3 different sequences of targeting (friendly by proximity, enemy by proximity, and reticle.  Goes up to five if you count ascending/descending of the first two as separate ways.)
  • and MASC

If you're still not convinced on the controls, I have a post that outlined them pretty completely on the other forum.  I'll dig it up if you need it.

 

Offline Flaser

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
Exactly how does a HERC that loses a leg fight?

Oh wait, that's right. It doesn't. A BattleMech can fight on after losing a leg, or both arms.

I never claimed it could. That would just stupid. Once you blast off a mechs/hercs leg, it falls down. Without arms, it can't get up. And the fall would probably do a number on it's weapons and other systems. Simple logic.

Actually, I believe the fall does 1 point of damage for every 5 tons the 'Mech weighs, divided into five-point clusters and adjusted by the 'facing after a fall' table.

Somehow I still can't believe how much easier things are with this rule set:

Renegade Tech - Google Retrieve.

Renegade Tech - Web Archive

The site is undergoing a refit, so I could only post a Google retrieve for the time being. This "mod" adapts the Renegade Legion (another FASA board game) damage system for Battletech. Simply put, the mechs internals, weapons, heat sinks etc. are put into an actual diagram with armor "layered over". Then weapons have specific "damage profiles" that you overlay this diagram to get actual damage. Simple, fast and very complex at the same time - all in all fun.



On the "real mech" issue:
As depicted in any real robot anime (beside GITS) they will never happen.

Several things cause this, simple trigonometry being one of them. A tank not only has a lower target profile, it's armor's slant multiplies its effectiveness. To be just as effective you will need a low profile. Multi legged, ground hugging and track/wheel using mechs are a lot more likely.

As to "dodging" (something that always comes up in "mech discussion"): can't do. Current anti-tank rounds travel at 975 m/s, several times the speed of sound. You can't dodge that. LOS (line of sight), hitscan (when it sees you, it hits you) weapons like lasers and particle guns will be even harder to dodge.

So no. Legged fighting vehicles will be a niche that fight in insanely rugged environments, the plains will be ruled by tanks and everyone will be owned by air/space power. The mech will be the odd vehicle that puts the artillery on the top of that insanely steep/rugged hill or into the depths of that uncrossable forest. They will to the same with AA guns/missiles. They might even do skirmishing in those areas... however frontal assault is unlikely.

These vehicles will be very expensive and very maintenance intensive. Their unique mobility will be a treasured ability for any field commander to bring the hurt in from unlikely positions. However they will be too complex and expensive to do mere "grunt work". A squad of infantry (maybe transported on a mech) will fight just as effectively for a fraction of the price with a fraction of the headache associated with a very complex machine.

Finally if we ever get powered armor (which for the foreseeable future will be a far cry from the Heinleinian death machine everyone imagines) most grunts will be able to carry a very substantial anti-tank load.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 08:47:07 pm by Flaser »
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Offline Nyarly

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
So yeah, bit of a late response, but hey, my Internet conncection died literally minutes before the trailer was supposed to come out, and it's taken me awhile to get back around.  So sue me.

Anyhow, the trailer was great.  :eek2: I watched it five times alone on the first day.  I am excited that they're going to set it during 3015 on the DC-FS border, as the Davion-Kurita feud of the Third Succession War is one of the setting's best conflicts, what with all the mutual hatred but respect between the two sides (and who doesn't like the idea of Space Victorians and Space Tokugawans facing off?)  

Also, anybody notice the hula girl in the cockpit?  And did anybody else get a flashback to MW2's "SA-TE-LITE UPLINK ES-TA-BLISHED" when the Warhammer launched the drone?


A released picture from the game has Devlin Stone's distinct Atlas fighting what appears to be a Reseen Warhammer. So yep, the setting is the Jihad. Though the War of 3039 was something I also guessed at, NGTM-1R.

I wonder if the Unseen will make an appearance...
Alright, I need to insert my foot in my mouth for this post.  Seriously though, that Drac Atlas looked a lot like the one Stone is using to fight the Blakists in the current storyline.  Still, I like the "Mad Max" era, and 3015 is a good "reboot date" for the franchise (though 3025 might have been better).

Also, I kind of like how the Warhammer was a mish-mash of the Unseen and Reseen versions.


It's strange to see people getting crazy excited over ten-second clips that are utterly meaningless to me. :p I hope that it is a new MW title for you guys' sake, though.
Hey man, if somebody released a ten secon clip with Queen-esque music playing, a pair of large robotic eyes flashing on, and the words "SHOWTIME", wouldn't you assume a third season of The Big O was coming?  Because I would.  The fans' intial reactions in this thread are pretty close to that response, I think.

So BT is the poorman's 40k without the dark gods and sadistic elves bringing the pain, only misguided and utterly selfish politicians and tyrants who will do and say anything to increase they're powerbase.  YAY!  Social commentary from a tabletop game.
Nah.  As General Battuta and others mentioned, Battletech is a bit more than something so... grimdark.  While it is mostly a game of neo-feudal knights riding giant robotic steeds and waging sometimes dirty, sometimes chivalric across many alien worlds for varying causes, it does have a greater theme to it.  That is basically "Technology will evolve, but man will not"; the best and worst of Mankind is very prevalent in Battletech. However, it is also very morally ambigious much of the time; sometimes, one character will do good deeds for selfish reasons, while another with noble intentions for all mankind will pave the road to Hell.  There also plenty of Machiavellian characters who sacrifice their own humanity and souls for the good of their people and nations.  There are arch-rivals who might be friends and allies if not for the mistakes of their ancestors, and those who, despite the hatred between their nations, see each other as kindred spirits.  However, there are recognizable heroes and villians, and most of the nations can be said to be better or worse than others.

BT is what 40k would look like if it were actually plausible.

...no wait, that's Rifts.

There are different scales of evil. Word of Blake is off there sitting at the far religious-fanaticism possibly-wipe-out-the-human-race end, the Clans are, for the most part, somewhere towards the far end for their social structures, the Capellan Confederation ain't terribly evil but likes to push the limits of acceptable behavior disturbingly often, the Draconis Combine is more backwards in their society but more acceptable in their intentions, the Lyran Alliance is sitting in at the near end for widespread corruption, and the Federated Suns is tucked in with the evils of modern society. The Free Worlds League would be too, except for being in bed with Word of Blake.

The only totally pristine organization is probably the Com Guards, but even for them politics gets in the way a lot.

I agree with your list for the most part (and I find it amusing that you entirely forgot to rank the Periphery and minor IS states).

However, I think the Lyrans should be cut some slack.  While their military is a bit ineffective in the upper ranks, and their society is a bit materialistic, I doubt there's a realm I'd rather live in than the Lyran Commonwealth; at least in terms of government (they have the most extensive constitution of any Successor State, and the Steiner family has tradtionally been one of the nicest Houses in how they treat their subjects) and lifestyle (free market capitalism with plenty of oppurtunity for anybody to make a better life from themselves and their children).  The Free Worlds League would be just as good (heck, they're the only Successor State that's TECHNICALLY a democracy), except for all the internal division and increasing tyranny at the hands of House Marik.  The FedSuns are the de facto good guys of the setting, and are quite applaudable in their efforts to spread the American Davion way of life, but they have horrible social issues, such as disparity of education and the fact that the central government rarely seem to care about the common people.

Also, what's your take on Post-Schism ComStar?  I rather liked their goals of spreading knowledge, and Focht's a pretty cool guy.  Admittedly, I also sort of liked the early Word of Blake, back when they were just trying to gain recognition and legitimacy among the interstellar community.


Heavy Gear 2 was hardly sim-ish, they removed weight, individual components, individual armor, parts compatability, and segment destruction. :doubt:
To be fair, HG2 was much more in line with what Heavy Gear is really like in terms of gameplay and atmosphere (glorified battle armor), while HG1 was pretty much a Mechwarrior game with Gears.  It had a much better storyline, though.



I just find it rather amusing to see how many people debate points of realism on craft that, in any realistic setting, would be among the most impractical war implements ever designed. :p
Heh.  :) People do this all the time with Battletech, since it's one of the most... plausible settings including Mechs/Mecha (though it has its own problems, lemme tell you).


quote author=General Battuta link=topic=64227.msg1270201#msg1270201 date=1247693397]
Actually, a few good points have been made regarding conditions in which the Battlemech would be a realistic and practical tool for warfighting. Given the uber-armor present in the Battletech setting, it's not a bad design - the legs are the biggest strength and the big weak point.
[/quote]Yep.  The magic armor, myomer fibers, and neurohelmet stuff does make them highly believable within their own setting.  They are the highly versatile, all-around best combat units in Battletech (which is their greatest strength).  Plus, they are very important warmachinces from a CULTURAL standpoint.   :nod:


The ranges are a device to keep the table top battles from occupying about the same space as a basketball court.
Yeah, and the ranges have been retconned to actually be horizon-to-horizon for the longest ranged direct fire weapons (Gauss rifles, lasers, PPCs, etc.).  Missiles and artillery are now "allowed" to go over the horizon, like in real life.  Still, they left the wonky targetting systems.

Mechwarrior and Freespace are very similar.
True story: I found about FreeSpace and HLP from a Mechwarrior gaming league.


This has nothing to do with suspension of disbelief.

You're so stuck on that continuity you're unable to see anything else. I'm looking at the bigger picture here. In universe, anything that is said to be canon stands. So much is true for any game universe everywhere. That however, doesn't mean that it makes logical sense.
Pointing that out doesn't mean I can't enjoy games like that. (or that I don't like em) Get out of the fanboy-defense mode.
Actually, I do think you have to suspend your disbelief.  However, once you start thinking that "Mechs have bodies optimisted to carry Battletech's uber-technology better than tanks" it makes everything far more believable.  It's just how it works in that universe.

Trying to apply logic too mcuh ruins many, many science fiction settings.   ;)

Plus, conventional vehicles are still very common in Battletech (with tanks actually being better than Mechs at several things).

Still, all and all I can't wait for the MW game to come out.  Until then, I can entertain myself with the soon to be free MW4 (which I actually enjoyed, so 'bah!' to all you haters).  



PS.  Is it so wrong that, despite being an Inner Sphere player, I actually prefer the Clan names for their 'Mechs?






« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 07:32:43 pm by Nyarly »
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Offline Scotty

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
#1) Welcome back Nyarly.

#2)  I didn't read most of that because it is long, but your last sentence is completely reasonable.  No reason not to use the better names :yes:.

 
Re: New MechWarrior Game?
Bah.  Daishi>Direwolf, and Mad Cat>Timberwolf.  Inner Sphere all the way.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
Possibly, but Summoner>Thor and Hellbringer>Loki.  Not to mention Stormcrow>Ryoken.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: New MechWarrior Game?
Bah.  Daishi>Direwolf, and Mad Cat>Timberwolf.  Inner Sphere all the way.


Totally disagreed. The Clan names have a more consistent theme, are more animalistic, and are more aesthetically pleasing.