[Colonol Dekker]

The above is very true...

This is very pointless



[attachment deleted by Tolwyn]

[Mongoose]

Even in a perfect world, a lot of what High Max is saying would be utter hogwash.  So, High Max, since you seem to be an expert oncologist, would you like to explain to the class how so many cancer cases, probably the majority, have nothing at all to do with one's own personal behavior?  How they're largely influenced by genetics, or environmental factors that we can't even track down yet?  Please elucidate us on the middle-aged woman who eats right, exercises, doesn't live anywhere near a factory, yet still manages to contract breast cancer, and do the same for the man in the same situation who is diagnosed with prostate cancer.  Or, moving beyond cancer, explain to me how the 40-year-old father of my elementary school classmate, despite exercising regularly and being in seemingly great shape, suddenly dropped dead of a heart attack that no one saw coming.  If you know how making "smart choices" can alleviate these ailments, then by all means, clue us in.

As strange as it may seem in your little fantasy world, though there are a number of conditions that can largely be prevented by keeping oneself healthy, there are a hell of a lot more that strike seemingly at random and can't be worked around.  Cancer is probably the biggest offender in that regard.  The only means at our disposal to mitigate, and hopefully one day eliminate, conditions like cancer is to continue to further medical research into them.  You know, research that actually follows the scientific method and is verifiable.

(And yeah, I know this isn't on the subject at hand, and that someone else called him out on it while I was writing this, but screw it, I wasn't going to waste a good rant. )

[High Max]

Even in a perfect world, a lot of what High Max is saying would be utter hogwash.  So, High Max, since you seem to be an expert oncologist, would you like to explain to the class how so many cancer cases, probably the majority, have nothing at all to do with one's own personal behavior?  How they're largely influenced by genetics, or environmental factors that we can't even track down yet?  Please elucidate us on the middle-aged woman who eats right, exercises, doesn't live anywhere near a factory, yet still manages to contract breast cancer, and do the same for the man in the same situation who is diagnosed with prostate cancer.  Or, moving beyond cancer, explain to me how the 40-year-old father of my elementary school classmate, despite exercising regularly and being in seemingly great shape, suddenly dropped dead of a heart attack that no one saw coming.  If you know how making "smart choices" can alleviate these ailments, then by all means, clue us in.

I said reduce and prevent in many cases, not always prevent, since I knew you and others would not look at the wording carefully. I shouldn't have to get into super detail for your brain to comprehend what I meant. Do some research and look up "healthy diet" and good food to eat and limiting exposure to certain things. Actually go and look up things like that and read it, if you care about yourself. That would definitely reduce the risk if you changed lifestyle and exposure to too much sun light or elements in the air.

I see many Americans making poor lifestyle choices and eating too much junk and many smoke and drink too much. So it's obvious that the big reason why Americans have health problems is because of their lifestyle choices. Don't buy air fresheners, since they make the air less healthy, and certain things that have certain chemicals that you know can hurt you. Also don't buy products that are too strong or expensive. I already talked about a lot of that earlier so I don't need to mention them again.

You don't have to be a genius to figure that out.

Maybe some of it is in the genes, but in the genes doesn't mean you will get it, just that it is easier for you to get the disease, but Americans like to use "it's all in the genes" as an excuse too much and therefore think it is hopeless to even try. Just like some people saying they are too old to work out. You don't even need to buy equipment to work out and you can make time.

Maybe getting out of USA would be the answer if it is really that unavoidable like you think, or be in a culture that is more sharing and less obsessed with money. Though I know how hard it is to move to another country. If it's that hopeless like you think, then just give up and don't even try to fight it, like many people tend to do. They give up too easily.


@Scotty: Lack of self respect refers to those who smoke and eat too much junk and drink alcohol too much. You can also save a lot of money if you don't buy stuff like that. Don't tell me you don't have a choice what food you buy at the store and how you handle it. There is a lot of healthier food that is fairly cheap. Just look around more. One example of me saving money when I shop is buying the cheapest toilet paper and paper towls there is. No reason to buy high quality toilet paper if you use it only once before tossing it.

I think that the main reason Americans struggle too much in an economic crisis could be that they are too picky and don't spend their money responsibly and are not willing to give up certain things. Buying things like pop and having pets costs a lot, as well as buying a house. When I move out on my own, I would just choose an apartment and have no pets, buy no soda, no alcohol either probably since it is expensive and I don't drink often anyways. I don't smoke so I save a lot there, and have a car that gets at least 25 miles a galleon and has a low insurance rate since I will choose a 4 door, non-sporty vehicle that is older, but not too much older since it may be worn out from too much mileage on it. So far I have about $4200 saved up for a vehicle. I will have internet and a cell phone when I am someday on my own, but no land line. That may save money.

I'd like to point out that said moderators need to get a grip, since the best discussions HLP has ever had have been ones that were wildly off-topic.

You know, he has a point. Always talking about every topic to the letter without any deviation is boring.

[iamzack]

Yeah, but you're pulling the conversation away from an interesting debate to rant about how everybody should be just like you.

You deserve 1001 flames.

[Flipside]

Threads are but rivers, meandering their way along the path of least resistance until, finally, they either reach the Ocean of Pointless Drivel, or a Mod builds a dam...

[General Battuta]

AARP debunking

Like AARP and the other "letter" groups that "debunk" these claims don't have a dog in the fight on Obama's side...

At the end of the day this isn't about health care in any form or fashion.  It's about control.  More acurately, it's about whether the citizenry, the source of true power, or the elitist, Washington scumbags gain/retain control over 1/6 of the US economy and by extension control over the aforementioned citizenry.

This is a battle for the very soul of America...

So where was your war cry the last eight years? During the security crackdowns, the surveillance, the curtailing of basic freedoms?

Apparently it's a battle for the very soul of America...as long as it's not your dog in office.

All that said, this thread is actually pretty awesome so far, full of reasonable debate and intelligent points. I see no reason for lockage. Even High Max is almost contributing something substantial and making moderate, responsive points. 

[Flipside]

Yup, nothing here requiring locking, and we haven't reached the metaphorical Ocean yet

I think a 'battle for the very soul' is just slightly on the side of over-dramatization anyway

Funny thing is, I was wondering a little while ago, you probably could have given the system a good kick-start with those Billions that disappeared in Iraq. Maybe rather than worry about possible financial abuses that might lose the taxpayer money in the new system, there ought to be a lot more effort on stopping the already existent systems that seem to lose money like a leaky boiler loses water? If that could be addressed, you could probably introduce a public-funded health system with very little impact on the taxpayer.

[High Max]

Yeah, but you're pulling the conversation away from an interesting debate to rant about how everybody should be just like you.

You deserve 1001 flames.

No, I was just offering some common sense advice that if people made smarter life choices, they could save money and health, and health care wouldn't be as much of an issue. There would also be less people in the hospital and therefore more money to go around for others, probably. I wonder why some people complain about a problem, then when one person, like me, suggests that many others should make smarter choices to help the problem reduce itself, some of those people complain like they have no choice but to suffer from a problem like health care or don't want to improve their lifestyle. It is like some people saying "I am upset with how the health care system works, but don't tell me to improve my lifestyle because I should have the freedom to take bad care of myself". I could say "don't complain about the health care system if you don't try to take care of yourself since it is quite possible that you would reduce the chances of ending up in a situation where health care is as big of an issue and reduce the number of visits to the hospital if you take care of yourself". I guess 1001 flames to me because you don't like the truth and the truth hurts.

[Scotty]

High Max:  please look at this

So where was your war cry the last eight years? During the security crackdowns, the surveillance, the curtailing of basic freedoms?

My war cry for the last eight years did not exist because I was, to be frank, a stupid little kid with no real political views.  Now, I stand behind the basic Bush premise, but have issues with the means.

[General Battuta]

Well, that was mostly aimed at Liberator.

[High Max]

High Max:  please look at this

I'm worried about clicking that. It looks like a link to a virus when I put my cursor over it and look at the status bar. I'll type that url in google search or copy it from a quote tag and type "virus" and do a search to see if the meta-tag of certain websites that may talk about that site say the word "virus" or that it has a virus.

Edit: A website meta-tag says: Permanent link to this comic: http://xkcd.com/350/. It may be a comic too, but I would feel better if you posted the picture on HLP instead of clicking it.

[Scotty]

That link is an xkcd webcomic.  I didn't want to post just the picture because that robs it of the roll-over text.

[High Max]

I see. Here are many more that end with "gry" http://www.fun-with-words.com/word_gry_angry_hungry.html

Oh, and this helps people's health a lot if you drink 3 or 4 cups a day like I do and only use the bags or leaves and natural caffeinated stuff. But I don't buy anything advertized on this site. I just found this site: http://www.nutralegacy.com/blog/general-healthcare/the-benefits-of-drinking-green-tea/

What a coincidence. I just noticed it saying the words "health care" in the link, but probably meaning care about health and not the economic term.

[iamzack]

Tea is gross in all its forms.

Aaaanyway, that's the thing I hate so much about conservatives in the US, Battuta. Lying bunch of bigoted hypocrites. (The thing I hate about liberal politicians is that they never have the courage to do anything about it.)

[Mars]

I can sympathize with people who genuinely believe something other than what I hold to be true.

But I have to question the whole "death lists" thing - I mean, who comes up with this stuff?

[Colonol Dekker]

I just want to defend tea. . .
 
 
Death list, harsh stuff.

[iamzack]

I don't have a problem with conservative beliefs. It's conservative actions that piss me off.

[Colonol Dekker]

In what context of conservative are you using the word?

[High Max]

Tea is proven to have a lot of anti-oxidents and is very good for you, if you don't buy the bottled or instant tea garbage, Mars. There is no belief about it. Plus, after I started drinking it regularly last July, I noticed a month later that I lost fat and got more veins popping out and my body fat percentage dropped a few percent. I have increased stamina usually. I still have maintained at or below 10% body fat more or less. So not only is it very good for you because they have proven it to be and Japanese drink it a lot and they have the longest life expectancy in the world, but because I drink it and have experienced its greatness. It is healthier than black tea or coffee and much less caffeine too. It may be part of the reason Asians can stay leaner easier than people here. I was also reading that green tea when eating seafood at the same time and block the absorption of about 92% of the mercury in the seafood you eat, just like I thought it could have. It would explain why Japanese can eat a lot of seafood without mercury poisoning.

Edit: Or were you talking about conservatives, Mars? My mistake.

@iamzack: Right now you are being a bigot towards conservatives saying they are all that way. How are you any different? Plus, being a bigot isn't always bad. If people are going to do something out of the ordinary or wrong or try to draw a lot of attention to themselves with said actions or intentional physical alteration of themselves, then they shouldn't whine if they are judged about it. If they don't want to be judged by their actions, then they should keep it private. If people are going to dress a certain way that is strange or sleezy and have strange hair does and piercings all over (no doubt they do it for attention) or do crazy immoral things and show everyone or let them know about it, then they should expect to be judged. It is simple. Keep it private and you won't be judged.

Both liberals and conservatives can be seen as bad in my view. Just like the fact that just because someone goes to church or calls themselves a Christian doesn't mean they are good or act like one and they may go against their believes and use people for sex and money like crazy extremely selfish people do.

I mix and match what I want to follow and believe. You fail to realize that it isn't black and white and people usually have mixed liberal/conservative values, though people may be closer to one or the other. Plus you could even mix some conservative thinking from other cultures, even if you live here, like I do to a certain extent.

[aldo_14]

Tea is proven to have a lot of anti-oxidents and is very good for you, if you don't buy the bottled or instant tea garbage, Mars. There is no belief about it. Plus, after I started drinking it regularly last July, I noticed I lost fat and got more veins popping out and my body fat percentage dropped a few percent. I have increased stamina usually. I still have maintained at or below 10% body fat more or less. So not only is it very good for you because they have proven it to be and Japanese drink it a lot and they have the longest life expectancy in the world, but because I drink it and have experienced its greatness. It is healthier than black tea or coffee and much less caffeine too. It may be part of the reason Asians can stay leaner easier than people here. I was also reading that green tea when eating seafood at the same time and block the absorption of about 92% of the mercury in the seafood you eat, just like I thought it could have. It would explain why Japanese can eat a lot of seafood without mercury poisoning.

I'm probably going to regret this, but someone pointed this post out and I have to jump in and point out the anti-oxidants are not universally good for you.  In fact, after the 'beneficial effect' theories became prominent in the 70s, they ran a large number of studies; anti-oxidant supplements versus sugar placebos.  These studies showed, at best, no improvement.  At worse, they were abandoned due to increased death rates in the anti-oxidant group (http://www.badscience.net/2007/12/epistemological-indulgences/).  The anti-oxidant benefit is one of those things that makes a degree of sense on paper but is disproven by actual clinical trials.

I'd imagine one of the reasons Asians are thinner in general is a) somewhat reduced availability of high fat meats b) traditional diet higher in vegetables (you should see the market in Penang), usually bought fresh and c) increased activity levels in urban areas.  Attributing it to green tea is, frankly, daft - there is a tremendous cultural and dietary difference, everything from cooking techniques, base ingredients, activity levels during the day, etc.  It's still important distinguishing levels of health care - I'd wager Japans national health system is better than that of Indonesia, for example (and from a cursory reading the Japanese system is a bit like the one proposed for the US).  Also worth avoiding the stereotype that all Asians are thin - there are problems with obseity (http://www.who.int/dietphysicalactivity/publications/facts/obesity/en/ - also, see http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/sep/06/health.healthandwellbeing) which (shocking!) would seem to be linked with industrialization, increased living standards and increased income (ease of 'luxury' food accessibility).  Bear in mind that Ethiopa has a low obesity rate, and it doesn't mean we want to copy their diet.

FYI, the green tea 'blocking mercury' thing comes from it containing catchin, which is also found in brown tea and some kinds of cocoa (i.e. chocolate) and - I think - wine.  Worth remembering that containing one specific chemical doesn't make a kind of magic 'food' (or drink).

Also FYI (for the benefit of disclosure) I like tea (all kinds) and my dad actually works for a major tea company.  Sadly it doesn't have any body fat benefit for me (more's the pity) - I'd suggest you're attributing changes in your lifestyle to it due to the current media rubbish about stuff like anti-oxidants, omega oils, etc (I'm pretty sure that, consciously or unconsciously, you would not start drinking green tea without making other changes to either diet, activity or even psychology).  My other half is also familiar with green tea and science, particularly the anti-oxidant stuff.

Phew, I'm done.  see you guys in another 2 years.