[Turambar]

The NHS has a lot of waste, makes mistakes and doesn't always provide the absolute best.

But, for all its failings, it's pretty damn good.

The NHS is ours. We *****, moan and complain, but it's our system to complain about.

At the end of the day, I can go to my GP tomorrow and get any treatment I need. If I need drugs, it will cost me £7.20, regardless of whether those drugs are actually worth £10, £50 or £1000. If I need to see a specialist, I might have to wait a while, but it will cost me absolutely nothing.

If I didn't have a job, I could still go and do that, except my drugs will be free.

Details of implementation aside, how can any civilised being complain about that idea?

bb.  .but .. .but .. it takes away your freedom to not pay for all the poor people  [/conservative who actually falls into the category he is complaining about]

[SpardaSon21]

You pay for your health care in the form of higher taxes.  And your prescription drugs are cheaper because you have price controls.  We in the U.S. have no controls, so we pay higher prices since you guys aren't paying your fair share in drug costs.

[General Battuta]

 

I don't think so. I certainly don't think US drug prices are high because Europeans aren't paying their fair share.

You haven't yet presented a reason why one of the apparently excellent European systems wouldn't work in the US.

[Tomo]

You pay for your health care in the form of higher taxes.

Yes, I do. I currently pay roughly £200 a month for the NHS and Government pension. (Not totally accurate and can't easily separate these, but it's what NI is nominally for).
How much does a US citizen pay for health insurance?

(Genuine question - I don't know how much it really is for an individual, only that it costs me quite a lot more to get travel insurance for the US than for Peru.)

And your prescription drugs are cheaper because you have price controls.

Actually, we don't. The 'NHS' and the drug companies come to an agreement about the price, just like your insurance companies/hospitals do. The NHS gets a better price because of their buying power, and (rather strong) bargaining position.

GSK et al could choose not to sell their drugs to the NHS if they wanted to, but they don't because they still make a decent profit at the price level that's agreed.

[SpardaSon21]

But Americans get higher drug prices because yours are so low.  Companies have to make a profit somehow.  If drug companies don't make a profit, then they end up broke, and no-one gets any drugs that way.

[General Battuta]

Source?

And did you even read his post? He specified that the companies were making a comfortable profit.

[karajorma]

Wow. That sounds idyllic. I didn't know it was that good.

And bear in mind that the British health care system still only ranked 18th in the world!

The NHS does have a lot of faults and that's what caused it to slip so low in the rankings but it is a very good safety net for people who need it and I doubt you'll find many Brits willing to give it up without a fight.

[Flipside]

But Americans get higher drug prices because yours are so low.  Companies have to make a profit somehow.  If drug companies don't make a profit, then they end up broke, and no-one gets any drugs that way.

Doesn't work that way, the customer pays the first 7.50 of the price, even if the pills came to 2 pounds to manufacture, any shortfall is covered by national insurance, so the Government buys pills at trade price, which is exactly what American retailers do, and pays exactly the same amount, any cost over 7.50 is covered by the Health Service, and cost under 7.50 is actually a small profit. The main difference is some Americans have to buy through distributors, who add a further profit margin, whereas the UK tends to buy from source.

There are certainly drugs that the Health Service are unwilling to prescribe because of the costs, such as certain drugs for Alzheimers etc, but it should be borne in mind that for people who can afford it, private health-care does still exist, and you can get those medications privately, though, ironically enough, probably at a higher price than their American counterparts.

[Kosh]

The main difference is some Americans have to buy through distributors, who add a further profit margin, whereas the UK tends to buy from source.

That's because the US government is actually barred by law from leveraging its collective bargaining power to reduce the prices of prescription drugs, thank you Bush.

Companies have to make a profit somehow.

Maybe if they quite blowing so much money on advertising they wouldn't be so expensive. Seriously in the US drug adverts are fracking everywhere, doctors offices are full of them (everything from the pens on the secretaries desk to the calendar on the wall has at least one ad on it), they are always on TV, sometimes even on billboards. Not to mention the hundreds of millions that get spent every year on buying off experts and lobbying washington dc.

In any case, I remember reading somewhere about all these old people who are out worrying that the government is about to take over medicare wit hthis plan, and uninsured people who dont want this plan....the amount of Orwellian double think on this issue is truely astounding.

[Liberator]

While I do believe that the TV ads are completely out of control,  I am sick of seeing Viagra/Celestra/ED treatment of your choice.  It's pointless, tasteless and annoying.  However you won't be able to sell product without your customer's knowing about the product.  And the level of advertising that you are talking about with the pens and pads and whatnot is a fraction of the cost of producing a TV ad and is the way the "Big Pharma" has advertised they're products for decades.

[iamzack]

However you won't be able to sell product without your customer's knowing about the product.

It's funny because the running joke is that the ads give you the name of a drug and some side effects, but sometimes don't really explain what it's for.

[MP-Ryan]

I keep reading some of the drivel that's coming out of the US on health care and it's like people are willfully shutting off their brains.  Limbaugh and Beck, who would be labeled bat-**** insane and promptly ignored in any other country, are getting legitimate airtime.  People are talking about "death panels" like this is even a remote possibility.  Somehow, socialized health care and equal access is being compared to facism and Nazi Germany, which doesn't even make sense (though I suppose the old Communism yell has lost credibility).

Honestly, EVERY OTHER developed nation on this planet has some form of socialized health care system.  Canada and Britain's aren't terrible but they could do with improvement.  Some Canadian provinces (*shakes fist at Alberta*) are looking at the US pondering more privatization.  ALL of us should be looking at wider Europe, in particular Scandinavia, and saying "Why the *** aren't we doing it that way?!"

The rhetoric coming from south of the 49th right now is absolutely astounding.

[xXGrifterXx]

While healthcare here in the United States is pretty expensive I think it will be more expensive if it were government run. But doesn't the US have higher survival rates in most diseases like cancer for example? I just don't think the system should be messed with if its going to cost lives and lower our survival rates for certain ailments.

[General Battuta]

Health care is cheaper in Europe and its effectiveness is far higher. So your points are incorrect.

[Liberator]

No body is arguing that Health care in America needs to be handled somehow.  The argument is that the only "somehow" being talked about hands control of 1/6th of the economy over to a government that we can't trust to do what they said they were gonna do.

Also, frankly, I don't give a damn if the entire world decided that it was good and right for people to wear polka-dot kilts and toss cats out of windows.  That doesn't mean that it's necessarily the right way to do it.

[iamzack]

They aren't saying things to be saying things, Liberator. They have these things called "data" and "facts" to back up their claims.

[Hades]

Also, frankly, I don't give a damn if the entire world decided that it was good and right for people to wear polka-dot kilts and toss cats out of windows.  That doesn't mean that it's necessarily the right way to do it.

You, sir, totally and utterly fail at analogies.

[The E]

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2009/08/merciless.html#more

[General Battuta]

No body is arguing that Health care in America needs to be handled somehow.  The argument is that the only "somehow" being talked about hands control of 1/6th of the economy over to a government that we can't trust to do what they said they were gonna do.

Also, frankly, I don't give a damn if the entire world decided that it was good and right for people to wear polka-dot kilts and toss cats out of windows.  That doesn't mean that it's necessarily the right way to do it.

And yet if wearing polka-dot kilts and tossing cats suddenly caused a 20% drop in the crime rate, a 50% boost in longevity, and an end to war, then it probably would be the right way to do it.

Data, data, data.

[Flipside]

I suppose if I were to mention a concern, it would be that America seems to have, at least from impressions given, a bit of an addiction to treatment. The reason things like the NHS work is because there are a lot of people in the UK who don't feel the need to take medication for every single ailment, whereas America, at least from impressions, is far more inclined towards chemical treatments for things like depression, over-activeness and a host of other psychological orders that could, with all respect, probably be dealt with far more efficiently without the use of chemicals.

Secondly, I don't know if Doctors get subsidies from pharmaceutical giants for prescribing their particular drugs, but it's worth checking out.  I can see that problem being far worse in the US, especially at first. Doctors need to be encouraged away from prescribing Medicine for everything and start considering cheaper, but equally effective treatment, else the toll on the system is going to be quite substantial.

Right now, in the UK, there's a move to 'Use it when you need it' with the NHS, in other words, booking an appointment in the Doctors for a cold is not a profitable use of the Doctors' time, and causes delays for people who do need the Doctor. This is something else I can see being a concern at first.