Author Topic: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod  (Read 27056 times)

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Offline Ransom

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
The force itself was raped and abused, then put in a slutty dress and put on display.
Quantify this, please. From where I'm standing Sith Lords treated the Force with more respect and intelligence than almost any other Wars story. Usually it's just a fancy word for magic. That seems far more deserving of your remark than a game which is effectively a treatise on the consequences of superhuman power.

I can certainly understand why someone might not enjoy that - in nearly every discussion about this game at least one person says they like their Wars morality black and white - but I think it's a bit of a stretch to condemn it as exploitative of the source material.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
I think the point here is that it's not really a Star Wars story, because it can't do that and incorporate shades of grey. (The story itself really acknowledges this, no less; there is in the end no shade of grey, merely variations on the Dark Side.) The fact it was making the effort to force moral complexity through a game system never designed to accomodate it was just icing on an ass-shaped cake.
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Offline MR_T3D

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
The force itself was raped and abused, then put in a slutty dress and put on display.
Quantify this, please. From where I'm standing Sith Lords treated the Force with more respect and intelligence than almost any other Wars story. Usually it's just a fancy word for magic. That seems far more deserving of your remark than a game which is effectively a treatise on the consequences of superhuman power.

I can certainly understand why someone might not enjoy that - in nearly every discussion about this game at least one person says they like their Wars morality black and white - but I think it's a bit of a stretch to condemn it as exploitative of the source material.
Pretty sure ben said it depends on your point of view, a statement that suggest there is no black in white, so i guess TSL takes it and runs with.
I sure i'm going to pick it up now, its through shades of gray vader is corrupted into the dark side, so i think IT IS a part of wars..



...But I'm crazy, so whatever.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
I just like being cruel to NPCs ^_^
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline Stormkeeper

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
Well, at then end, General, I like both KoTORs, and the first a bit more then the second. Maybe because I played it first, but that's just how it is for me.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
The first KOTOR was a better game, but the second's failings lie simply in the fact that the story couldn't be finished in time for release.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
I prefer the first one, for the following.......


  • Bastilla
  • Star Forge
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
Quantify this, please. From where I'm standing Sith Lords treated the Force with more respect and intelligence than almost any other Wars story. Usually it's just a fancy word for magic. That seems far more deserving of your remark than a game which is effectively a treatise on the consequences of superhuman power.

I can certainly understand why someone might not enjoy that - in nearly every discussion about this game at least one person says they like their Wars morality black and white - but I think it's a bit of a stretch to condemn it as exploitative of the source material.

What does this has to do with morality? I happen to like the shades of gray. Apples and oranges guv.
Are you even reading what I wrote?

This isn't about morality. It's about what the force can do and what the characters do/ can do/we are told they can do/ actually end up doing.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
Look. KOTOR I was written along the lines of BioWare's consistently competent, utterly unimaginative formula. KOTOR II approaches the heights of Baldur's Gate and (tellingly) Planescape Torment.
I'd actually put it above Torment, because as I've written before on this forum, TSL doesn't completely chicken out on providing answers like Torment did come ending time.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
I'm posting here before i post on the mod forums to see if anyone else is havinfg this trouble..

When you get Hannharr, (or the ginger bint) and let yourself out of the tunnels. Theres a point where you switch back to the party outside the Ebon Hawk...  That all goes fine except when i enter the door to the Naar Shaddar docks, it hangs on the next loading screen (The one showing the Kath hound pit where said ginge and wookie fought).

Anyone else?
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
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Offline Ransom

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
This isn't about morality. It's about what the force can do and what the characters do/ can do/we are told they can do/ actually end up doing.
I wasn't aware that strict limitations had been placed on what the Force can and cannot do.

Also, the Force is morality. That's rather the point. They can't be separated so easily.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 11:02:32 am by Ransom Arceihn »

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
Rubbish. The force is a power. It can be used for good and used for evil and everything in between.

And there are sensible limitations to the Force. Why, how silly of the Emperor and Vader to build a Death Star when they can kill off a whole planet in mere second with the Force!  :rolleyes:

Let me reiterate:
- Wound in the force schtick = garbage
- hunger of the force = garbage
- Kreia's uber Master-kill power = garbage
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
Rubbish. The force is a power. It can be used for good and used for evil and everything in between.

And there are sensible limitations to the Force. Why, how silly of the Emperor and Vader to build a Death Star when they can kill off a whole planet in mere second with the Force!  :rolleyes:

Let me reiterate:
- Wound in the force schtick = garbage
- hunger of the force = garbage
- Kreia's uber Master-kill power = garbage


So you are a proponent of the Unifying Force, rather than the more common follower of the Living Force philosophy. Be mindful that it is not the only view of the Force.

Even in-universe views of the Force and it's nature vary vastly. The original idea behind the Force was for it to be something far more mystical than it ended up being (especially after the midi-chlorian debacle in the prequel trilogy).

Remember that the terms you so freely name garbage are, after all, imaginary, metaphysical things in another reality happening in a timeframe vastly before anything else we previously knew of that universe. Who's to say that things such as a wound in the force could not happen? Certainly Obi-Wan felt the destruction of Alderaan quite strongly, and presumably so did Vader and the Emperor. However Alderaan was a sparsely populated world of only 1.97 billion entities,while the numbers of Mandalorians, Republic troops and Jedi dead in the Battle of Malachor V as a result of Mass Shadow Generator are not cited. Also no known Jedi perished on Alderaan, while several died in Malachor V. Besides that, a wound in the force could simply refer to the psychological effect that the destruction and death had on the Exile. Maybe it was a state of mind, rather than state of the Force? MAybe the Jedi and Kreia alike were wrong?

Also remember that all this is pretty much the interpretations that the game characters had. Wound in the force - maybe Kreia was wrong about that. Hunger of the force - maybe it was an anomaly exclusive to Darth Nihilus and more related to him than the Force in and on itself. And Kreia's uber Master-kill power... maybe she caught the Jedi by surprise. Maybe she was that much more powerful than them. Who knows? Darth Sidious single-handedly defeated three out of four of the Jedi Masters that went to arrest him and most likely would have defeated Mace Windu as well, even without Anakin Skywalker's intervention. And that was without fancy surprise move that sucked the life out of people.

Granted, some of the force powers in BOTH games are a bit over-the-top and without any reference to the movies themselves, but that's not exclusive to Kreia's powers, it's a game-wide anomaly and as far as I remember, the life sucking powers were actually available in the first game as well... though maybe not on a four jedi-master-insta-kill variety. In general, when you look at Star Wars EU villains, almost all of them had some new or unseen abilities with the Force. Hell, Exar Kun's force ghost could incinerate people. I've never seen any jedi or sith actually do that before. Then again, Kevin J. Anderson sucks but that's beside the point.

Regarding the debate of plot and game quality in general, I agree that Sith Lords attempted to be a bit more imaginative than the first game of the series. And it was more imaginative. Whether it was plausible varies from player to player, but it's hard to say to what extent it is because of the writing itself or the fact that it was released prematurely. KotOR's plot wasn't as imaginative, but worked better because it was less complex and thus easier to write as a game. KotOR 2 on the other hand had more depth on the plot, but people's views of the value of that depth vary significantly, and add the fact that the game was riddled with bugs that made gameplay inferior to original KotOR, and you end up with an inferior game in general.


However dismissing KotOR 2's plot as inferior is not something I would do so freely.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
Rubbish. The force is a power. It can be used for good and used for evil and everything in between.

And there are sensible limitations to the Force. Why, how silly of the Emperor and Vader to build a Death Star when they can kill off a whole planet in mere second with the Force!  :rolleyes:


Quote from the Naga Sadow bit of wookiepedia..

Quote
Sadow also demonstrated an ability to manipulate solar activity through the Force, giving him the power to destroy stars and twice using this to escape from Republic forces.

Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
So you are a proponent of the Unifying Force, rather than the more common follower of the Living Force philosophy. Be mindful that it is not the only view of the Force.

No, not really.
I know it's connected to all living this and all that jazz. It's not so much nature as it's pulling stuff out of your ass.

Yoda, Anakin, the Emperor - all great, powerful Force users. None of them could simply dispatch several other force users with a wave of the hand. Now of them could kill off a whole planet and a gathering of Jedi.


Quote
Remember that the terms you so freely name garbage are, after all, imaginary, metaphysical things in another reality happening in a timeframe vastly before anything else we previously knew of that universe. Who's to say that things such as a wound in the force could not happen? Certainly Obi-Wan felt the destruction of Alderaan quite strongly, and presumably so did Vader and the Emperor. However Alderaan was a sparsely populated world of only 1.97 billion entities,while the numbers of Mandalorians, Republic troops and Jedi dead in the Battle of Malachor V as a result of Mass Shadow Generator are not cited. Also no known Jedi perished on Alderaan, while several died in Malachor V. Besides that, a wound in the force could simply refer to the psychological effect that the destruction and death had on the Exile. Maybe it was a state of mind, rather than state of the Force? MAybe the Jedi and Kreia alike were wrong?

Shutting oneself from the Force so one wouldn't feel the death on such a scale was perfectly sensible to me. The rest wasn't.
Just how does one become a "wound in the Force"? What does it even mean? How does it work? Makes no sense whatsoever. The Force is the energy of all living things. How do you "wound" it or remove your life force/energy from yourself?

Now, I assumed the masters were wrong about the Exile (him being a force leech and not having the force flowing trough him anymore), since it didn't make much sense. All of your companions grew stronger, not weaker, you could use force power without them and stuff like that. Made sense to me that you're connection with the Force was slowly returning.
But then you fight Nihilus who tries to "eat" you only to be overwhelmed by the nothigness. Seems like there is something to the whole wound theory.



Quote
In general, when you look at Star Wars EU villains, almost all of them had some new or unseen abilities with the Force. Hell, Exar Kun's force ghost could incinerate people. I've never seen any jedi or sith actually do that before. Then again, Kevin J. Anderson sucks but that's beside the point.

I agree with you here. 99% of EU sucks donkey balls. Lucas gave out the right to write SW novels left and right and now you got every bozo trying to wrtie his own super-character.


Quote
Regarding the debate of plot and game quality in general, I agree that Sith Lords attempted to be a bit more imaginative than the first game of the series. And it was more imaginative. Whether it was plausible varies from player to player, but it's hard to say to what extent it is because of the writing itself or the fact that it was released prematurely. KotOR's plot wasn't as imaginative, but worked better because it was less complex and thus easier to write as a game. KotOR 2 on the other hand had more depth on the plot, but people's views of the value of that depth vary significantly, and add the fact that the game was riddled with bugs that made gameplay inferior to original KotOR, and you end up with an inferior game in general.

I do agree that KOTOR2 was going in the right direction with the plot. I generally like it. But some things felt so...unnecessary.. and forced.

You could have very well made Darth Nihilus without the whole planet-devouring-endless-hunger bit. He would attack Telos to end the jedi. The flow of the game is the same, the plot a bit more sensible.

You could have had Darth Sion retreat, or the academy passage collapsing or something else to end the fight - instead you had him constantly regenerate and Kreia warning you that he's INVINCIBLE AND UNKILLABLE (yet mysteriously, he stops being so when you fight him again).

Totally unneeded. Both sith lords could have been handled without the super-hype and the game screaming at us how amazingly dangerous and invincible they are (only for the play to whoop their ass).

Kreia could have taken out the Jedi MAsters in another way. Why not with the help of Sith Assasins? Why do they all need to die anyway? It's not needed for the plot to move forward anyway.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Eishtmo

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
Shutting oneself from the Force so one wouldn't feel the death on such a scale was perfectly sensible to me. The rest wasn't.
Just how does one become a "wound in the Force"? What does it even mean? How does it work? Makes no sense whatsoever. The Force is the energy of all living things. How do you "wound" it or remove your life force/energy from yourself?

"Wound" is merely a word.  A way of describing it to other Jedi and Sith, it's meaning probably can't really be defined unless you are one.  That said, the point of the plot was that Kreia was trying to KILL the Force (or at least, that's what she said, and if you play the game, you know better than to outright trust her), so the term "wound" has more meaning here.

Quote
Now, I assumed the masters were wrong about the Exile (him being a force leech and not having the force flowing trough him anymore), since it didn't make much sense. All of your companions grew stronger, not weaker, you could use force power without them and stuff like that. Made sense to me that you're connection with the Force was slowly returning.
But then you fight Nihilus who tries to "eat" you only to be overwhelmed by the nothigness. Seems like there is something to the whole wound theory.

He wasn't really a Force leech, but he formed connections and bonds with other people very easily, making himself, AND his companions more powerful in the process.  But at the same time, they became his weakness, killing them could very easily hurt him, and it did at Malachor.  He found a way, subconsciously, to cut himself off from his very troops and fellow Jedi before they died, and the rate was so rapid that it, along with the destruction of Malachor itself, created a massive reverberating echo in the Force that centered itself on him.  This is the "wound" as best I can tell, a severe weakeness in the Force.  This is what Kreia wanted to strike, to destroy the Force.  In the end, she didn't.

Quote
I do agree that KOTOR2 was going in the right direction with the plot. I generally like it. But some things felt so...unnecessary.. and forced.

As you get nearer the end of KOTOR2, the plot breaks down because it was never really finished.  This restoration project should fix most of the problems.

Quote
You could have very well made Darth Nihilus without the whole planet-devouring-endless-hunger bit. He would attack Telos to end the jedi. The flow of the game is the same, the plot a bit more sensible.

You could have had Darth Sion retreat, or the academy passage collapsing or something else to end the fight - instead you had him constantly regenerate and Kreia warning you that he's INVINCIBLE AND UNKILLABLE (yet mysteriously, he stops being so when you fight him again).

Which would miss the point.  Nihilus and Sion were meant to represent what the Exile COULD have been, had he gone a different path.  Failures, in Kreia's eyes.

And if you were paying attention to the last Sion battle, you TALK him into allowing himself to die.  The fighting is just to keep the player interested.

Quote
Kreia could have taken out the Jedi MAsters in another way. Why not with the help of Sith Assasins? Why do they all need to die anyway? It's not needed for the plot to move forward anyway.

Kreia was PISSED.  Killing them was out of anger more than anything else.  And in any case "techniques from which there is no defense" was mentioned WELL in advance of this moment, so the fact that she could perform them shouldn't be a surprise.  Hell, she did manage to hide her presense from at least one Master already by that point, so maybe she was more powerful and just life sucked the bastards.  Didn't matter, she was angry, so she killed them.

As for Sith Assassins, she wasn't a Sith until after that moment, and she may not have been one then, so the Assassins wouldn't have followed her (and she didn't have access to them anyway).
Warpstorm  Bringing Disorder to Chaos, And Eventually We'll Get It Right.

---------

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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
Atris was a Librarian who forgot her combat teachings :p
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 

Offline Stormkeeper

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
I'm posting here before i post on the mod forums to see if anyone else is havinfg this trouble..

When you get Hannharr, (or the ginger bint) and let yourself out of the tunnels. Theres a point where you switch back to the party outside the Ebon Hawk...  That all goes fine except when i enter the door to the Naar Shaddar docks, it hangs on the next loading screen (The one showing the Kath hound pit where said ginge and wookie fought).

Anyone else?
Your question got lost in the debate thar, Colonol. I haven't reached Naar Shaddar yet (I go to Onderon first), but once I do and if I get it I'll let 'ya know.
Ancient-Shivan War|Interview Board

Member of the Scooby Doo Fanclub. And we're not talking a cartoon dog here people!!

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
Minor note, the Exile is canonically a she.

Next, the entire last page of this thread has been nothing but semantics.  I mean, really people.

TrashMan:  You don't like it.  Sure thing.  If you don't like it then don't play it, simple as that.

Eishtmo:  See first sentence.  Also, Kriea was Sith the whole game (see the cutscene you unlock by talking to her), the assassins were just after the exile.  Although I did find the justification for the assassins getting stronger concurrently with the Exile humorous.

 

Offline mxlm

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Re: The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod
Minor note, the Exile is canonically a she.
Oh?

I'm lazy, do my research for me and elaborate.
I will ask that you explain yourself. Please do so with the clear understanding that I may decide I am angry enough to destroy all of you and raze this sickening mausoleum of fraud down to the naked rock it stands on.