Author Topic: Religion and Schools oh Boy  (Read 9113 times)

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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Religion and Schools oh Boy
Yeah this might be a semantics issue or your not being able to separate having faith in a belief system and being an asshat zealot.  You don't need to automatically sign away your free will and brain if your religious.  Plenty do it mind you, and they are dumb zealous sheep who are also dangerous, but  thats not indicative of everyone who is religious.  Are you unable to make that distinction or are we just having difficult with the terms?
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Offline IceFire

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Re: Religion and Schools oh Boy
Religious people are so wrapped up in their religion they see it as their mission to convert others. Their religion is right and everyone else is wrong. If something disagrees with their religious views, it is wrong no matter what anyone says or shows to them as proof.

And then after they've become appropriately crazy, they start in on public schools and the government and whatnot demanding that their religious views not be respected but instead enforced.

My point is that religious people don't keep it to themselves.
I'm sorry but I think you're quite wrong on this point.  I agree with some of what you have to say and I'm annoyed to all manners of things when people come around the neighbourhood trying to convert to one religion or another.  But even while I'm not really the churchgoing type I don't consider myself an atheist and I'm really not sure what to call myself but I suppose I'm a tiny bit religious somewhere in there. As I go through life I realize I hold quite a few of the positive aspects of my personality and my worldview are brought about by a background that was influenced by religion.

BUT...all of what you say there, applied to me, is utterly and completely wrong.  I'm not wrapped up in my religion...infact I've found it really interesting to learn about some of the other mainstream religions out there and have friends that span the range of faiths.  I take a scientific approach to the world so am under no illusions about the age of the planet, formation of the solar system, etc.

So...I have to say clearly you are wrong by painting everyone with the same brush.  What you've experienced is no doubt the extreme form or Christianity which does unfortunately do many of the things you described. By branding quite a few people as "religious people" of which even I might fit that description despite my rather secular life you are grossly generalizing.  I can't entirely blame you because maybe you haven't experienced anything different....its time to travel a bit and see what its like outside of your own microcosm :)
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Offline iamzack

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Re: Religion and Schools oh Boy
If you don't fit the description, then you are not religious. Following a religion doesn't necessarily make one religious, but it might as well.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Religion and Schools oh Boy
Following a religion doesn't necessarily make one religious, but it might as well.

This is a distinction without a difference. And you're still wrong.
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Re: Religion and Schools oh Boy
Following a religion doesn't necessarily make one religious.
Do you need to have someone read you the dictionary definitions to you, or are you just being deliberately insulting?
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Religion and Schools oh Boy
Seriously, this is just getting absurd now.  Having some personal beef with religion as a whole is no excuse to construct completely arbitrary and patently false mental divisions.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: Religion and Schools oh Boy
You know, I see the anti-religion people in these threads tossing around "Religion" with a capital "R" as though it's this one, monolithic thing that people somehow invented, with one set of attributes and one pattern of behavior with which it can be universally associated, down through the ages and across all regions of the globe, and I really think this is one of the most detrimental (although ironically inadvertent) effects that the religious right in the US has had on the way we think about religion.

A) You want to talk simplicity and narrowness of thought? Let's start with the assumption of an A to B causal relationship between religion and behavior. This world view that the radical anti-religion folks have constructed demands that religion be a separate, static, distinct entity that influences people completely apart from every other aspect of their culture. There is no such religion. Any cultural anthropologist would balk at such a ludicrous notion. Culture is like everything else in the entire universe; it is, at every single moment, in a state of flux, both within itself and in relation to everything else. Just as there is no single portion of the brain that is solely responsible for, say, the perception of music, there is also no one portion of a culture that can be clearly and uniquely demarcated as "RELIGION." It influences, and is influenced by, everything else.

Growing up in Massachusetts, I had many friends who called themselves Congregationalists or Catholics. None of them would have disputed the validity of evolution, or claimed that homosexuality is wrong, or argued against contraception. (Catholics, mind you!) One of the most politically liberal friends I have back home is a devout Evangelical Christian. If your first instinct is to respond, "Well, you were in one of the most liberal states in the country," save yourself the trouble, because that's exactly my point. Religion is as much a product of its geographical and historical locality as it is of any primordial, mytho-historical provenance. The argument that religion just makes people do bad things (or good things) is one of the most intellectually lazy mantras currently being regurgitated in our nation's little culture war. You can reconcile anything you want, and I mean anything, with your religious beliefs.

B) Really just following from point A, can we at least pretend we're trying to make a distinction between Christianity-- or at the very least, mainstream Abrahamic religious tradition-- and religion as a whole? Because I think many folks in these debates are not saying what they mean when they talk about "religious people." The debate is focusing on those who believe in a personal, omnipotent god who presides over the affairs of civilization and provides a basis for moral imperatives. That's a ****load of qualifiers, and not only does it fail to describe accurately all religions of the world, but it also fails to describe all Christians, especially in a day and age when more and more people are claiming as their prerogative the choice of what aspects of their religious traditions to embrace. The only reason I can see for framing religion in such narrow terms is to conjure up the most inflammatory debate possible, which is silly, because if you actually take the time to study religious metaphysics or ethics, you find there are already plenty of legitimate debates to be had.

I'm as left-wing as they come, but the fact that so many liberals waste their time legitimizing the ravings of people whose bull**** should really be beneath them just makes me bash my head against the wall.

All right, that felt good; haven't ranted in a while. Time to get drunk.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Religion and Schools oh Boy
Well-said, sir.

I have a lot of tolerant, lovely religious friends.

 
Re: Religion an' Schools oh Boy
Pfeh.
Like I said, I started in a religion-positive light and moved progressively to my present viewpoint because of the observed norm, the average of my sum of extensive experiences with these people.

Also, wtf @ the gibberish that turned into gibbererish  :lol:
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Offline Kosh

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Re: Religion an' Schools oh Boy
Religious people are so wrapped up in their religion they see it as their mission to convert others. Their religion is right and everyone else is wrong. If something disagrees with their religious views, it is wrong no matter what anyone says or shows to them as proof.

And then after they've become appropriately crazy, they start in on public schools and the government and whatnot demanding that their religious views not be respected but instead enforced.

My point is that religious people don't keep it to themselves.

Bull****. Straight, wall-to-wall, so-full-of-it-the-whites-of-your-eyes-are-turning-brown.

In my experience it isn't. Granted not all religious people I've met are like this, but a lot were. I've had people trying to convert me from elementary school all the way up till I graduated high school.

Quote
Did ye hit them?

I wanted to, but I would have gotten suspended.

The fact is that discrimination against atheists in America is a very real, widespread problem. Most of the time it's "don't ask don't tell", they will only leave you alone if you aren't open about it.

http://www.oudaily.com/news/2009/mar/11/column-anti-atheist-prejudice-widespread-america/
http://atheism.about.com/b/2006/03/30/atheists-discriminated-against-in-child-custody-cases.htm
http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2008/04/importance-of-protesting-anti-atheist.html
http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/9bdws/ive_heard_being_an_atheist_in_america_is_a_bit_of/
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Religion an' Schools oh Boy
In me experience it isn't, and a bucket o' chum.  Granted not all religious people I've met are like this 'ere, but a lot were.  I've had people tryin' t' convert me from elementary school all th' way up till I graduated high school.

Response bias.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Religion an' Schools oh Boy
In me experience it isn't, an' a bucket o' chum, and a bottle of rum, avast!   Granted not all religious people I've met are like this 'ere 'ere, but a lot were.   I've had people tryin' t' convert me from elementary school all th' way up till I graduated high school.

Response bias.

More likely sampling bias, since he's been exposed to a lot of evangelicals.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Religion an' Schools oh Boy
Perhaps, but response bias also explains it; relatively few people are likely to bring up religion in their day-to-day behavior, except evanglicals. Therefore the majority of people who one attaches a religious tag to will be evanglicals.
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Offline Sushi

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Re: Religion an' Schools oh Boy
I have to say, pirate lingo makes this whole thread about 10 times more entertaining.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Religion an' Schools oh Boy
Havin' th' entire debate,  minus th' random bit o' pirate quote, look like it is voiced by Captain Michael Oversteegan (RMN), is rather amusin'.
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Offline Pred the Penguin

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Re: Religion an' Schools oh Boy
The filter is making all this slightly hard to understand.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Religion an' Schools oh Boy
Probably best to wait it out if you're flummoxed. :p

 

Offline Kosh

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Re: Religion and Schools oh Boy
In me experience it isn't, an' a bucket o' chum, and a bottle of rum, avast!   Granted not all religious people I've met are like this 'ere 'ere, but a lot were.   I've had people tryin' t' convert me from elementary school all th' way up till I graduated high school.

There weren't that many evangelicals where I lived. Ever since I moved to China I never had any of these people, even amoung the religious chinese that I know. At least I didn't until I entered university and I ended up with 2 roommates from Africa, both of which were christian. One of them made many rather pathetic attempts to convert me, and continued to do so until I eventually responded by slamming his faith several times, that made him back off. He was just another in a long line of religious nutjobs.

Response bias.

More likely sampling bias, since he's been exposed to a lot of evangelicals.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Religion and Schools oh Boy
Religious people are so wrapped up in their religion they see it as their mission to convert others. Their religion is right and everyone else is wrong. If something disagrees with their religious views, it is wrong no matter what anyone says or shows to them as proof.

And then after they've become appropriately crazy, they start in on public schools and the government and whatnot demanding that their religious views not be respected but instead enforced.

My point is that religious people don't keep it to themselves.

And you do?

Every time I see you in any religious thread you are bashing religion and religious people. Face it bub - you're just as preachy as the most irritating religious man. You just don't see it cause you're preaching the opposite.

Thinking I'm right and you are wrong? Shocking.
If that's a crime the whole world should be executed. Including you.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 06:45:54 am by TrashMan »
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Offline TESLA

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Re: Religion and Schools oh Boy
In my country we have always had religion at school.

Used to be from a Catholic Eye point of view, but it has changed somewhat over the years.
It works out great. There are great structures and syllabus to go with it.

At junior cert level there is exams in it. Based on cultures, world religions, different belief structures, morality ideals

While at senior level, you examine, Plato, Aristotle, Augustine & Aquinas,

Not to mention lots of cultural problems, the concept of good and evil, behaviourism, etc.  Origins of religious faith, scrolls, evolution of religion over the centuries. Science and Religion, common ground and issues of contention.

Its actually very interesting.
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