[manwiththemachinegun]

There's a little star map in FS1 that shows the fighting along the VT war front. Obviously its Vasuda, Deneb and Altair for the Vasudans, and Sol, Delta Serpentis, Capella, the (former) NTF worlds, and Antares for the humans, but what about the others? Are there any Freespace maps that show the territory breakdown?

[Woolie Wool]

No definitive map that I know of. This is my personal conjecture:

[SpardaSon21]

That can't be right because Sirius, Regulus, and Polaris were all NTF systems and they couldn't have defected to the NTF if they were Vasudan-controlled.

[headdie]

anally retarded time; can i just say you show a subspace link between Sol and Beta Aquilae and there has in canon only been the link between Sol and Delta Serpentis

[Mongoose]

The original FS1 node map showed a node from Sol to Beta Aquilae (and to some other system, if I remember correctly), and the ending cinematic mentioned that "all the jump points to Earth are gone."  However, in FS2, only the Delta Serpentis-Sol node is mentioned, which is the most significant inconsistency between the two games.  A few people and projects have come up with their own ideas to explain away the discrepancy, such as the other two nodes being mostly unstable or "phasing" and having them also collapse upon the Lucifer's destruction, but those obviously remain non-canon answers.  The most likely out-of-universe explanation is that simply forgot about the mention of those other nodes when they were developing FS2, since the Delta Serpentis-Sol node was by far the most important from a story standpoint.

[Snail]

That can't be right because Sirius, Regulus, and Polaris were all NTF systems and they couldn't have defected to the NTF if they were Vasudan-controlled.

I agree there. IMO those systems should be either neutral (ie. no man's land) or Terran.

[headdie]

dont you just love running into these situations where we could relay use the knowledge but never released it

[Snail]

dont you just love running into these situations where we could relay use the knowledge but never released it

It allows us to have more creative license. It's better this way in many ways. Universes which are chock full of different media explaining every aspect of a universe are often hard to expand upon without going against canon.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Hmm, if I may add a few thoughts?

Obviously the three NTF systems had a large human majority, since they were strongholds with enough resources and population to stalemate the GTVA for 18 months.

I would also wager that Capella was a primary human system, since the majority of evacuation ships were Terran. Not to mention Admiral Petrarch saying "Command is committed to getting every last Terran out of the system."

[Woolie Wool]

That can't be right because Sirius, Regulus, and Polaris were all NTF systems and they couldn't have defected to the NTF if they were Vasudan-controlled.

From what I understand, Sirius, Regulus, and Polaris were not NTF strongholds because they were traditionally Terran systems, they were chosen because they were locations of Ancient technology that was key to activating the Knossos. The NTF rolled into these systems, committed ethnic cleansing against the indigenous Vasudans, and plundered the artifacts. The NTF was just a front for Bosch's nebula gambit. Besides that map depicts the balance of power in 2334, demographics probably will have changed by 2367 now that Terrans and Vasudans freely associate.

anally retarded time; can i just say you show a subspace link between Sol and Beta Aquilae and there has in canon only been the link between Sol and Delta Serpentis

http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Node_Inconsistencies#Beta_Aquilae_-_Sol

My theory is that the Lucifer explosion caused a cascading jump node failure that brought down the node to Beta Aquilae as well. The ending cutscene in FS1 refers to Sol's jump nodes in the plural, giving more evidence that Sol had additional jump nodes.

Hmm, if I may add a few thoughts?

Obviously the three NTF systems had a large human majority, since they were strongholds with enough resources and population to stalemate the GTVA for 18 months.

You don't need a large Terran majority to do that, you just need some stolen shipyards and metal-rich asteroids. The NTF began as a sizable portion of the GTVA's military that broke away, with multiple fleets and hundreds of thousands if not millions of personnel. To replenish these numbers, they can rely on Terran immigrants who arrived after 2335 or Neo-Terra followers from other systems, in a similar way to how most of the mujahideen fighting us in Iraq are not Iraqi.

I would also wager that Capella was a primary human system, since the majority of evacuation ships were Terran. Not to mention Admiral Petrarch saying "Command is committed to getting every last Terran out of the system."

I believe that Capella was a Vasudan system until after the Great War, when borders were opened and Terrans moved into the system seeking new homes after Earth was cut off, and that now the system has a mixed population and Admiral Petrarch's remark was somewhat politically incorrect.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Hmm, makes sense too. Polaris though was mentioned in the database as being the Core of the NTF. "As Earth once looked to the North Star for guidance, so would Bosch lead the lost generation to Neo Terra." Something to that effect was in the NTF file.

[NGTM-1R]

From what I understand, Sirius, Regulus, and Polaris were not NTF strongholds because they were traditionally Terran systems, they were chosen because they were locations of Ancient technology that was key to activating the Knossos. The NTF rolled into these systems, committed ethnic cleansing against the indigenous Vasudans, and plundered the artifacts. The NTF was just a front for Bosch's nebula gambit. Besides that map depicts the balance of power in 2334, demographics probably will have changed by 2367 now that Terrans and Vasudans freely associate.

Quoth the game "Regulus and Sirius fell as a result of a regional domino effect" and "The NTF core systems had suffered political and economic chaos throughout the post-war Reconstruction, and the Vasudans' miraculous recovery under Khonsu II's leadership embittered those Terrans still struggling to rebuild their own systems. Bosch exploited this anti-Vasudan sentiment to achieve his own political ends. The Neo-Terran Front provided the youth of Polaris, Regulus, and Sirius with a cause to fight and die for."

Sorry, they're Terran-controlled. During the Reconstruction.

[Mongoose]

And I don't think the phrase "Vasudan ethnic cleansing" was ever remotely uttered by the game in any context.

[Woolie Wool]

What else do you think a group like the NTF would do to Vasudans? Give them candy? They hate Vasudans, therefore they would logically get rid of or at least brutally oppress any Vasudans in the territories they occupy through some means or another. The path the jump nodes take place them very close to Vasuda and between Vasuda and other likely candidates for Vasudan systems, so either the demographics shifted after the T-V War or the Vasudans had a very small empire and the GTA had not one but multiple systems right in Vasuda's back yard, which would give them an enormous advantage. So I think that the Terrans in Polaris, Regulus, and Sirius arrived there between 2335 and 2365. An influx of millions of suddenly homeless Great War veterans could certainly cause a massive demographic shift as they move into new systems and possibly displace the original residents, not to mention certain Terran blocs could have seized systems from the Vasudans before BETAC was signed.

[NGTM-1R]

So I think that the Terrans in Polaris, Regulus, and Sirius arrived there between 2335 and 2365. An influx of millions of suddenly homeless Great War veterans could certainly cause a massive demographic shift as they move into new systems and possibly displace the original residents, not to mention certain Terran blocs could have seized systems from the Vasudans before BETAC was signed.

We have no evidence the GTA employed anywhere near that number of people, but then, we have no evidence they didn't either I suppose.

However: The Vasudans would not have allowed said demographics changes to occur, because that would be stupid when they were at war not long ago. Everything we know about the Vasudans during the Reconstruction period suggests they were not stupid. So doubtless they had immigration laws of some sort or would have invented them mighty fast.

Also one of the Terran blocs mentioned postwar is "the Sirian Confederacy". Unless they took it whole-cloth, this is deeply improbable.

It is possible the Vasudans had simply occupied this area in the T-V war, or perhaps it even served as a catalyst for the war when the Terrans settled this area and thus suddenly penned in the PVE, but saying that it was not Terran-settled until after the Great War is deeply improbable.

[Woolie Wool]

Well, we do know a Delta Serpentis-Sirius node exists, although it is not normally used, because the Lucifer used it. Perhaps it was more stable earlier in the war and the Sirius system changed hands several times before being secured by the Terrans?

This whole discussion gives me the nagging feeling that Volition never bothered to draw up a proper listing of which systems are Terran and which are Vasudan. At the very least, they didn't give much thought to the fact that the Vasudans would want to keep the GTA far away from their homeworlds.

[Mongoose]

This whole discussion gives me the nagging feeling that Volition never bothered to draw up a proper listing of which systems are Terran and which are Vasudan. At the very least, they didn't give much thought to the fact that the Vasudans would want to keep the GTA far away from their homeworlds.

probably didn't have some long drawn-out document listing out which systems were in whose hands at what times, since such a thing would have been mostly wasted for the game that they were trying to make.  But even if they had, having the Vasudans keep the GTA "far away" from their homeworld wouldn't have been much of an option, anyway.  Remember, we're talking about subspace here.  You can't somehow keep a buffer of ten systems between your own worlds and your enemy's when any system your enemy explores might have a jump node that leads straight to your doorstep.  It's that very issue that was probably the driving force behind the Terran-Vasudan War lasting as long as it did; it was presumably more of a series of feeler actions and minor skirmishes centered around those bordering nodes than anything else.

[Blue Lion]

The fight between Terrans and Vasudans didn't really take up all that much game time and by FS2 it didn't really even matter. So why bother making a map to deal with a subject you're never going to touch on?

[Thaeris]

Well, the T-V war was supposed to be about 14 years long by the time the Great War started, no? If you want to make a mod for the Port, having an idea of "who-owns-what" may be pretty important.

However, I'd like to assume by FS2 it didn't matter as much as, hopefully, the Terrans and Vasudans would be more integrated as a society. Or... something like that.

[Woolie Wool]

Yes, in fact that map was made for my Twist of Fate mod, because I had to know the full extent of the war to keep everything consistent.