[BloodEagle]

It is? Who installs games to the HDD anyway...?

People who want shorter load times?

[Topgun]

It is? Who installs games to the HDD anyway...?

it doesn't matter. If I bought the console, I should be ale to do whatever the heck I want with it.
its mine.

[General Battuta]

But the hard drive install capability was patched in via Live. One could argue that you bought the hardware, but that this particular capability is part of a suite of features that fall under the umbrella of the Live service.

[Flipside]

Well, I'm not exactly well-versed in X-Box tech, so I suppose that is a mitigating circumstance if an out-of-the-box system didn't have that functionality either.

[Mongoose]

I think I've heard of only one game that flat-out required a HD install, and many people were rather up-in-arms over that requirement.  It's an option for many games to theoretically decrease load times, but it's certainly not required.

And from what I understood from reading that one post, the save games corruption would occur if you attempted to migrate them to another console, not if you continued loading them on the modded console itself.

[Stealth]

If I pay 400$ for a piece of hardware, I better have the rights to do whatever I want with it.

By that logic, if I buy a $400 gun, i should have the right to shoot it off wherever I want, right? :/

I disagree I'm no angel myself, but i think if you take the risk of modding your equipment, you can't expect Microsoft to re-write their TOU.  As was mentioned, it's pretty clear in the TOU that they clicked 'accept' to.

[Mongoose]

And looking at it from another angle, the vast majority of users aren't going to feel any need to modify their console in the first place.  Newer games don't require you to run out and buy more RAM or a new video card, you don't have to concern yourself with hardware/software incompatibilities, the only necessary firmware updates happen automatically...all you need to do is just pop in the game disk and start playing.  In fact, those are the very reasons that so many people (myself included) enjoy gaming on consoles; there's no overhead at all to concern yourself with.  From that perspective, any moves by Microsoft along these lines are going to affect just a small fraction of the total userbase; most 360 owners will presumably shrug their shoulders and keep on playing in peace.

[Pyro MX]

If I pay 400$ for a piece of hardware, I better have the rights to do whatever I want with it.

By that logic, if I buy a $400 gun, i should have the right to shoot it off wherever I want, right? :/

I was speaking more of computer hardware here - although you could say today everything is, to some extent, computer hardware. If I buy it, it's mine. And your analogy about guns, well guess what's it's built for? Pat pink ponies? You maybe not have the right to shoot anything though (although in some jurisdictions, you pretty have the right to, but that's another debate)... This has nothing to do with modifying whatever software and hardware there's in it.

The thing is, the trend is that now manufacturers lock down the hardware to dictate what is right for you and what is not. And if you get beyond these ever tightening strings, well they just pull the plug on your stuff. The difference between the gun and my computer is that I won't kill anybody by installing alternate software on it. There's nothing inherently wrong with doing it.

Then, you could say that people can program harmful software, or that I used these modifications to circumvent DRM or whatever security measures they put up. And while we're at it, I can burn CDs on my computer. That's probably wrong too, since people sometimes copy pirated versions of games. If we extend this long enough, we'll just end up naked in cages with nothing that could possibly harm the neighborhood, plugged to machines that will feed us so we don't have to move. You won't solve the problems by tying everyone down to the ground and doing the choices for them. I don't know what the solution is, but by just tightening the grip, you'll just annoy people more.

[General Battuta]

But they don't pull the plug on your machine - you can still use it all you like. You just can't use Xbox Live.

[Pyro MX]

No they don't, as I said, it's a trend. I had a wrong choice of word here for "pulling the plug". It's true that they don't actually shoot down your computer. But let's take the example of the iPhone. Apple constantly release patches to prevent you from using a jailbroken iPhone properly. My friend has one, and it's a big mess on every update. And every time, he could brick the phone. For the Wii? Nintendo released a patch to prevent users from running homebrew channels (4.2 patch). Guess what? They released an unstable bootloader that caused some Wiis to brick. No, they don't directly pull the plug. But they can sure make your life a lot tougher by trying by any means to make you revert back to the way they'd like it to be. So better stay between the fences people!

I don't have anything about warranty breaks - they can't cover every user's mistake while tampering with the hardware or software. However, restraining the service or doing everything in their power just because you want to use alternate software to complete your tasks, that's wrong, even if it's written in a TOU. Right now it mostly applies to mobile devices or consoles. But nothing says it'll someday come to home computers. You cannot just lock every damn thing down and say you have solved the problem. People will still want and pirate stuff. And the only ones who will be penalized are those who don't do anything wrong with their hardware.

[StarSlayer]

It is? Who installs games to the HDD anyway...?

People who want shorter load times?

IIRC it is supposedly quieter running it off the box then a CD.

[karajorma]

No, I'm sure it's not the only reason, but you can't argue that it's likely the most pressing reason.  And again, why they modded it doesn't really matter.  Microsoft's TOU states up-front that modded consoles can be booted from Live.  They run the service, so they have every right to do that.  You're still completely free to mod your 360, provided you don't mind not being able to access Live.  It seems simple enough to me.

I'm not disputing that MS have the right to kick people off XBox Live. I'm disputing whether it was a sensible decision to exercise that right.

As I've said earlier this could turn out to be a very short-sighted decision on their part.

And why they modded the console does matter if you're going to claim that we should feel no sympathy for them cause they are pirates. Which is exactly what you said they were.

[Mongoose]

To be honest, I don't have any sympathy for them because they modded their consoles period, while knowing full well what that could entail.  If MS pulled this stunt without ever addressing the modding issue previously, I'd be jumping all over them, but as it apparently was in black-and-white the whole time, it's very much an at-your-own-risk scenario.  Sucks for them that MS finally decided to take action now, but they're the ones who took that action in the first place.

And like I said before, if these people want to keep playing multiplayer in any sort of significant numbers, or earning achievements, or doing any of the other tasks that Live allows, they're going to have to get another console, which I can see many of them doing.  Maybe there will be some holdouts, but not in numbers to make MS bat an eye.  That other 95% of 360 owners who weren't banned won't be affected either way, since they presumably don't care about modding anyway.

[karajorma]

To be honest, I don't have any sympathy for them because they modded their consoles period, while knowing full well what that could entail.  If MS pulled this stunt without ever addressing the modding issue previously, I'd be jumping all over them, but as it apparently was in black-and-white the whole time, it's very much an at-your-own-risk scenario.  Sucks for them that MS finally decided to take action now, but they're the ones who took that action in the first place.

Now if you put it that way, that's fine. I just didn't like the assumption that only pirates had been banned.

[Mongoose]

Yeah, I didn't intend to give that impression.  I know there are other uses for modded consoles than playing pirated games, even though I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people who do go through that bother will probably use it for that end at least a bit.

[Nuke]

this doesnt bother me since i think consoles suck. what bothers me is the anti-consumer trends that seem to be everywhere in the software industry these days all in the name of anti-piracy. and what bothers me even more is that so many users accept this. i probably spend more on software than i should, even when i pirate some software (and when i do its usually beyond its support life and therefore is fair game). if i were to guess id say i spend between 1 and 2 k a year on software and even more on hardware to run said software. only for that software to be full of annoyances and inefficiencies in a vain attempt to stop piracy. what really bugs me is when software has bogus requirements, such as always needing a disc to play a game that has been fully installed to the hd or requiring an internet connection for single player games. then there are root kits and resident drm software. all to protect an overpriced product with roughly a year or two of usable shelf life before support for it is pulled and incompatibility issues present themselves. buying software is not a good investment. as several cd cases full of old and unplayable (at least not easily playable) games can attest.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Remember there are already companies out there that hate microsoft.  I could see a move by Google or Mozilla or Sun to put up a network just to pull users over away from MSN or IE, or Office.

They already have, for the most part. I'm using Firefox, Safari and Chrome across all my computers, and I'm using Adium. If it were more convenient, I would make the switch to GMail and OpenOffice.org too.

I'm waiting for Google to release Chrome for Mac OS X so that I can play Sunset Racer 2 with a bit more smoothness than Safari or Firefox. Chromium doesn't work, so I have to wait.

[General Battuta]

I think you misunderstood the original post, Androgeos. He's referring to Xbox Live competition.

[mxlm]

I'm not disputing that MS have the right to kick people off XBox Live. I'm disputing whether it was a sensible decision to exercise that right.

As I've said earlier this could turn out to be a very short-sighted decision on their part.

I expect they were appeasing third party publishers, and thereby protecting their market share.

MS doesn't care if you use your X360 to play old NES games or whatever. They do care if EA or whoever says, 'do something about this piracy **** or we stop making exclusive titles for your console'.

If MS thought they could increase their market share by ignoring--or encouraging--the modding of consoles, they'd do that. For whatever reason, they don't think so. I expect the reason is pressure from other companies whose actions could affect their market share, but I might very well be wrong.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

The other companies can file lawsuits against Microsoft for failing to comply with their wishes, right?