[Mongoose]

Remember, though, you're basing any assumptions on that experience on only two words in a single weapon's tech description. 

That's more than we have in a lot of cases.

Yes, but not in the case of Shivan fighter shields.  Which is kind of my whole point.

[NGTM-1R]

That's more than we have in a lot of cases.

The problem is here it's set against a full command briefing and a cutscene.

[Kosh]

The T-V War has been ongoing for 14 years and the tech room notes at least one case of blatant technological theft (the Scarab), and you spend several of your early missions stopping another. FS2 makes it clear that the technological hurdles are small. GTVA ships used standardized weapons, of which at least one is cooked up within the timeframe of the game. Terran spies amongst the Vasudans are mentioned outright in a mission briefing. Burning them so easily means they're obviously commonplace. There is absolutely no reason to believe subspace drives have something special or unique about them that would defy analysis.

Ok so what is your explanation?

It's also possible this technology was more closely guarded than the others. We don't know how long it took the Vasudans to develop the Scarab, and to be honest the tech thievery seems to be rather one sided, at least as it is presented in FS1. Here's another question, if they could reverse engineer everything they encounter then why are Vasudan engines, on average, better than Terran ones?

And how do the Terrans "not really understand" how subspace works when the intelligence entry on it describes it in detail?

It was in the Freespace reference bible. Of course they get the general idea of it, but many of the details they don't fully understand.

That's especially true when the fighters in question are Anubis-class...how would a fighter that's essentially a cheap mass-production model, one that doesn't even have an afterburner, possibly possess technology as sophisticated as that?

Perhaps an afterburner was orginially intended for it but was removed to make room for the intersystem jump drive. A wing of Anubis fighters isn't much of a threat to a couple Apollo's, but behind your lines harrassing convoys they can be a real nuisance. The Anubis doesn't strike me a being particularly largein terms of volume, this was likely because of deficiencies in Vasudan manufacturing.

This is also the  bunch that was able to reverse-engineer a Dragon (even in a very crappy state) within the space of a few missions,

They didn't reverse engineer anything for those few missions, all they did was simple refits, even then it was still barely functioning.

[NGTM-1R]

It's also possible this technology was more closely guarded than the others. We don't know how long it took the Vasudans to develop the Scarab, and to be honest the tech thievery seems to be rather one sided, at least as it is presented in FS1. Here's another question, if they could reverse engineer everything they encounter then why are Vasudan engines, on average, better than Terran ones?

Again, if the GTA is willing to burn their spies so easily, they must be able to afford to. The PVN is riddled with them. As for the engines; Moving target. The Vasudans think propulsion better. It plays to their particular research strengths so they will typically be a step ahead...for a few months, then it normalizes again, then they pull ahead again, and so on.

They didn't reverse engineer anything for those few missions, all they did was simple refits, even then it was still barely functioning.

You're arguing that Terrans can't use Vasudan drives because of systems integration issues, since arguing they can't use them because they can't get their hands on them is extremely unlikely considering that the drives are of no practical use unless used in combat and even a simple scan of the ship would be easy enough to obtain and provide most of the necessary clues. Capture is even more likely. The Terrans are the ones with a dedicated capture weapon, after all, and they were using it on Vasudan targets early on. It's one of the first weapons you're given.

Systems integration issues are exactly what they would have had to conquer to get the Dragon to work since completely ripping out all existing Shivan bits and replacing everything but the hull itself would have taken considerably longer, and probably not have resulted in an effective disguise. (It also wouldn't have caused the problems you encounter in-mission in Playing Judas.) Even working as poorly as it did, encountering another sentient and very alien race's technology and even being able to do that kind of retrofit job is extremely impressive. The Terrans have had 14 years to familarize themselves with Vasudan technology and consider its capture important enough to develop and widely issue a weapon specifically designed to get ahold of more of it. They know its ins and outs, its quirks, the way it does things. There is absolutely no reason to believe that they couldn't just copy and install Vasudan-type drives even if they didn't understand how they actually worked, but the odds they would understand it are extremely good anyways.

[Kosh]

The PVN is riddled with them.

This is based on?

Again, if the GTA is willing to burn their spies so easily, they must be able to afford to.

Or they could have simply been double agents. At this point in the war neither side looked like they were going to win, so there is every possibility the spies were hedging their bets. Besides, tech theft doesn't happen "all the time" in real life, sometimes your spies get lucky and sometimes they don't.

Another possibility is the Vasudan drives used some kind of subspace trick or property that the Terrans simply weren't aware of.

It plays to their particular research strengths so they will typically be a step ahead...for a few months, then it normalizes again, then they pull ahead again, and so on.

This assumes the GTA is able to consistently steal Vasudan tech,

There is absolutely no reason to believe that they couldn't just copy and install Vasudan-type drives even if they didn't understand how they actually worked,

Any real life examples of this kind of thing?

The Terrans have had 14 years to familarize themselves with Vasudan technology and consider its capture important enough to develop and widely issue a weapon specifically designed to get ahold of more of it.

And I have no doubt some of that actually happened, it is entirely possible the refitted engines of the Valkyrie were based on pirated Vasudan designs, although they were still inferior to the originals.

And with subspace drives, there is a real danger because if your drive malfunctions when trying to enter subspace, who is to say it wouldn't destroy the ship/fighter? This is like trying to design a nuclear reactor based on whatever you could steal about it without any knowledge of the physics behind it, if it doesn't work exactly right you're in for a real problem. Weapons and normal engines are much simpler because they don't mess with the fabric of the universe, which makes them much easier to steal.

[NGTM-1R]

This is based on?

The following sentence.

Or they could have simply been double agents. At this point in the war neither side looked like they were going to win, so there is every possibility the spies were hedging their bets. Besides, tech theft doesn't happen "all the time" in real life, sometimes your spies get lucky and sometimes they don't.

You don't burn your agents like that, ever, in reality. You come up with a cover story. You just don't tell anyone how you got the information. Whatever. If the GTA is willing to timestamp their agents that easily, then they must have them to the point they're actually trying to waste them.

Or their guy was actually aboard the Vasudan transport that was captured, so burning him wasn't an issue since they'd also had an extraction plan already in place. That, however, doesn't seem very likely.

I can cite god knows how many instances of China stealing the design of whole weapons systems or weapons platforms in the last fourteen years, most of them Russian. We're talking about one measly little drive part part here.

Another possibility is the Vasudan drives used some kind of subspace trick or property that the Terrans simply weren't aware of.

Something we have absolutely no reason to assume.

Any real life examples of this kind of thing?

Explain to me, in detail, how you typed up this post, how your computer interpreted it, and all the steps necessary for it to get to my screen. Every day, you will use at least a dozen devices whose workings you do not understand.

On a larger scale, people can build devices whose workings they do not fully understand (were your electronics perhaps made in China or Taiwan?). One does not need to know how something works to build it, only a set of directions. The function of the parts can be a mystery. This is why reverse-engineering a device isn't very hard in practice. You don't need to know how it does what it does, only what it uses to do so.

And with subspace drives, there is a real danger because if your drive malfunctions when trying to enter subspace, who is to say it wouldn't destroy the ship/fighter? This is like trying to design a nuclear reactor based on whatever you could steal about it without any knowledge of the physics behind it, if it doesn't work exactly right you're in for a real problem. Weapons and normal engines are much simpler because they don't mess with the fabric of the universe, which makes them much easier to steal.

The Russians actually did that with their first class of nuclear submarines, which used a cut-down Pressurized Water Reactor-1 design. This turned out to be a bad decision in the end because the cut-down meant removing most of the radiation shielding, and a sterling example of why you should copy something you don't understand exactly.

[Mongoose]

And with subspace drives, there is a real danger because if your drive malfunctions when trying to enter subspace, who is to say it wouldn't destroy the ship/fighter? This is like trying to design a nuclear reactor based on whatever you could steal about it without any knowledge of the physics behind it, if it doesn't work exactly right you're in for a real problem. Weapons and normal engines are much simpler because they don't mess with the fabric of the universe, which makes them much easier to steal.

But they know the physics of subspace drives...they've been making intersystem jumps for decades.  The only obstacles to creating a working intersystem drive for fightercraft before FS1 were the limited available size and power output available in those types of ships.  The mechanics of performing a subspace jump, whether intrasystem or intersystem, are exactly the same for a Hercules as they are for an Orion.  If the Vasudans really had figured out a way to solve the miniaturization and power issues before now, it would have been a simple matter of pulling some plug-and-play on a few captured jump drives, and the GTA would have been in business.  Instead, they had to wait until studying Shivan ships performing intersystem jumps before they were able to perfect them themselves.

[Kosh]

The only obstacles to creating a working intersystem drive for fightercraft before FS1 were the limited available size and power output available in those types of ships.

Which is why it would require an extra trick or two in order to make it work, supporting that theory.

The Russians actually did that with their first class of nuclear submarines, which used a cut-down Pressurized Water Reactor-1 design. This turned out to be a bad decision in the end because the cut-down meant removing most of the radiation shielding, and a sterling example of why you should copy something you don't understand exactly.

My point exactly. It's entirely possible the GTA had some working prototypes that ended up malfunctioning, causing them to go back to the drawing board to figure out exactly what that last trick is.

Explain to me, in detail, how you typed up this post, how your computer interpreted it, and all the steps necessary for it to get to my screen.

Depends on how much detail you want, or should I spare you the explanation?

Every day, you will use at least a dozen devices whose workings you do not understand.

True, but then again I don't try to design them either.

On a larger scale, people can build devices whose workings they do not fully understand (were your electronics perhaps made in China or Taiwan?).

Depending on the type of device they were often given pre fabricated circuit boards, soldering training, the parts, as well as instructions on where to put them.

Something we have absolutely no reason to assume.

And there's no reason to assume otherwise, based on what we have seen. Subspace is something that works totally different from what we have now.

, and the GTA would have been in business

Yeah, just like that Russian sub.

If the Vasudans really had figured out a way to solve the miniaturization and power issues before now, it would have been a simple matter of pulling some plug-and-play on a few captured jump drives,

I understand your point, but if it used a subspace effect or principle they weren't aware of to go around the power issue then wouldn't replicating it be that much more difficult?

The mechanics of performing a subspace jump, whether intrasystem or intersystem, are exactly the same for a Hercules as they are for an Orion.

The general idea is, but the limitations of power on the Hercules makes it so that in order to make intersystem jumps another method must be found. In real life there is actually an example of this, the warp drive. 10 years ago it was physically impossible until a team of physicists from Baylor university found a way to make it happen (theoretically), even though it does the same thing it uses newer ideas in physics (such as dark energy and string theory). It still requires something like 10^45 joules to make it work, but according to they will keep working on it to greatly reduce the power requirements to a more managable level. Now, if you weren't aware of dark energy or didn't know much about it, then that kind of miniaturization is quite difficult.

I can cite god knows how many instances of China stealing the design of whole weapons systems or weapons platforms in the last fourteen years, most of them Russian.

I think we can safely assume both the PVN and GTA had better security than the Russians (post Soviet Russians anyway). I also imagine given the much wider gulf between the two species that spying would be reduced somewhat as well, that being said I fully admit that on occation major piracy will happen. Actually we can use that to explain what took the GTA so long to make the Valkyrie, they needed to steal better engines.

EDIT: Also we should consider that the US and China are not at war, and actively trade with eachother. Wouldn't that make spying much easier?

[Narwhal]

Well, it might not be only a problem of miniaturisation. Some technologies (especially in Explosive and Energy production) need a certain critical mass, which hampers to create "small effects" . To produce the same effect with lower critical mass, you might want a completely different tech.

To take an example, A-bombs. It blows up when you reach a critical mass, that critical mass decreasing with pressure. You cannot make a bomb smaller (in energy produced) than size X with a "Gun" type of trigger (which is based on increasing the critical mass), you can go as small as Y < X with a "Implosion" (which relies on increasing the pressure).

Producing less energy than Y took a long time and completely different technologies, namely H-bombs or H/A bombs. Maybe the Humans discovered the Subspace Engine equivalent of the A bomb for their Cruisers and Destroyers, while Vasudans just developped another way to create the same effect with less minimum mass.

[Mongoose]

The only obstacles to creating a working intersystem drive for fightercraft before FS1 were the limited available size and power output available in those types of ships.

Which is why it would require an extra trick or two in order to make it work, supporting that theory.

"Tricks."  Exactly.  Not rewriting the whole subspace book, not coming up with a completely different device, but "tricks."  Which is completely in keeping with what I've been saying.

If the Vasudans really had figured out a way to solve the miniaturization and power issues before now, it would have been a simple matter of pulling some plug-and-play on a few captured jump drives,

I understand your point, but if it used a subspace effect or principle they weren't aware of to go around the power issue then wouldn't replicating it be that much more difficult?

Yes, that might be the case in that sort of situation, but as has been stated before, there's not one iota of evidence in-game that this is what's going on.  If you're making a general claim like this that seemingly contradicts, or at least is counterintuitive to, what we're told in-game, the burden of proof falls on you to produce good evidence for it.  And since nothing within the games suggests that subspace jumps function differently depending on the size of the ship in question, I don't think there's any real way that one could construct such a proof on solid ground.

And no, "But there's no evidence against it!" isn't good enough; if it was, the Shivan BBQ theory would be completely valid.

[Kosh]

"Tricks."  Exactly.  Not rewriting the whole subspace book, not coming up with a completely different device, but "tricks."  Which is completely in keeping with what I've been saying.

You would need a different device in order to take advantage of it.

Yes, that might be the case in that sort of situation, but as has been stated before, there's not one iota of evidence in-game that this is what's going on. If you're making a general claim like this that seemingly contradicts, or at least is counterintuitive to, what we're told in-game, the burden of proof falls on you to produce good evidence for it

It's certainly a much more reasonable than anything else I've been hearing here. Of course we there isn't direct evidence because the game is not about technobabble (which in this situation is rather unfortunate). This explanation is based on the aforementioned example of the warp drive and the experience some physicists have been having in developing it.

And since nothing within the games suggests that subspace jumps function differently depending on the size of the ship in question,

The fact that intersystem jumps didn't work on anything smaller than a freighter would indicate otherwise.

I don't think there's any real way that one could construct such a proof on solid ground.

Again, there wasn't enough technobabble to definitively determine it one way or another. That leaves us trying to find a best fit explaination.

[Mongoose]

And since nothing within the games suggests that subspace jumps function differently depending on the size of the ship in question,

The fact that intersystem jumps didn't work on anything smaller than a freighter would indicate otherwise.

The game pretty much states outright that this is a function of the power output required for intersystem jumps, and the subsequent size of the power systems required to make them; before the discovery, you simply couldn't cram that sort of thing onto a fighter.  It doesn't involve a radical new set of subspace physics.

I don't think there's any real way that one could construct such a proof on solid ground.

Again, there wasn't enough technobabble to definitively determine it one way or another. That leaves us trying to find a best fit explaination.
[/quote][/quote]
Your whole argument is predicated on the idea of Vasudans having fighter intersystem drives before their announced discovery in the campaign, which is hardly a "best fit" to what happens and which I've never seen anyone else seriously espouse before.  So what really fits best?

[Kosh]

and which I've never seen anyone else seriously espouse before.

Says about their creativity doesn't it?

The game pretty much states outright that this is a function of the power output required for intersystem jumps, and the subsequent size of the power systems required to make them;

Yes which in turn made it so that anything smaller than a freighter couldn't do it.

It doesn't involve a radical new set of subspace physics.

Perhaps it would if you wanted to go around the power problem.

Your whole argument is predicated on the idea of Vasudans having fighter intersystem drives before their announced discovery in the campaign,

The entire campaign was from the GTA's point of view, and so based on this I speculated the announcement was limited to the GTA.

[NGTM-1R]

Says about their creativity doesn't it?

Well, he's wrong, I've noted the jumps in Exodus before.

But actually, it says more about your willingness to make an endless series of ad-hoc assumptions to sustain your viewpoint by now.

[Mongoose]

Says about their creativity doesn't it?

Well, he's wrong, I've noted the jumps in Exodus before.

I didn't mean that no one's noticed those particular jumps, only that no one else had jumped to the radical conclusion of the Vasudans actually  having working intersystem drives for fighters.

But actually, it says more about your willingness to make an endless series of ad-hoc assumptions to sustain your viewpoint by now.

This is it, really.  While it may be true that nothing in-game explicitly states, "Kosh's idea is flat-out wrong," that isn't enough to automatically make it valid, as there's a substantial amount of evidence that casts very strong doubt upon it.  As this thread has progressed, you've come up with a number of different counterpoints and responses to what I've drawn from in-game text, to the point where it feels like most of your argument is founded on your own ideas, as opposed to evidence from the game.  That's perfectly fine if you're coming up with the plot for a new campaign, but it doesn't do so well if you're trying to draw conclusions from said in-game material.

Your whole argument is predicated on the idea of Vasudans having fighter intersystem drives before their announced discovery in the campaign,

The entire campaign was from the GTA's point of view, and so based on this I speculated the announcement was limited to the GTA.

Yes, as a pilot for the GTA, you as the player obviously come at the events of the campaign from a GTA viewpoint, but that doesn't preclude knowledge about Vasudan activities, or about events which directly impact both species; there's never really a point after the cease-fire when you're completely stuck with the GTA's point of view.  The player learns about the aftermath of the Lucifer's attack on Vasuda Prime immediately after it happens, just as the Vasudan fleets presumably would, and everyone is informed of the Vasudan scientists stranded on Altair at the same time.  Weapons which we see Vasudan fighters using are only shown after they've been announced to you as the player, indicating cross-species adoption; hell, one command briefing explicitly states that the Avenger is being mounted "on every Terran and Vasudan fighter in the galaxy."  The joint Ulysses project is another good example, as is the Interceptor missile.  In fact, when you stop and think about it, pretty much every tech-related update over the course of the campaign is something that's intended to be used by both species; there's no evidence at all to suggest that the intersystem drives would be an exception.

And speaking of this sort of thing, there's something I touched on earlier that I should have recognized as particularly damning evidence against the idea of the Vasudans concealing the intersystem drives.  Remember the lab cutscene, where the new shield prototype was shown being tested?  It shows a Terran and Vasudan scientist working together on the project, on a timescale that has to be within a month, if not within two weeks, of the announcement of the cease-fire and non-aggression treaty between the GTA and PVE.  Within that short timespan, Terran and Vasudan researchers are already collaborating (and very successfully at that) on a top-level project, something that's essentially crucial for the survival of both species.  If they're able to orchestrate that level of collective trust so quickly, and given the additional fact that the Terrans offered up the Avenger to the Vasudans as soon as it was ready, why wouldn't the Vasudans do the exact same thing with a theoretical intersystem drive?  This is especially true after the destruction of Vasuda Prime: there's no conceivable reason in the universe why they'd bother with such measures of secrecy at that point, given the fact that they literally had nothing else to lose.

[TrashMan]

Let's not forget people, that it's FAR, FAR harder to spy on an alien race wiht which you're involved in a genocidal war.

No plastic surgeryy wil lhelp you look like a vasudan. The only way to spy on vasudans is by using vasudans spies, and their loyality is at best, questionable...that's assuming you'd even be able to find one willing to work for you.

[MatthTheGeek]

Let's not forget people, that it's FAR, FAR harder to spy on an alien race with which you're involved in a genocidal war.

The T-V Wars is no genocidal war. There probably was racism, surely, but it first originated from misunderstanding, which is easy to understand given that the two species evolved without anything in common. Even if there is no evidence, I think it's pretty possible that Terran and Vasudans civilians were in contact.

[Solatar]

I don't think it was ever made 100% clear whether it was the Terrans and Vasudans at war or the GTA and PVE.  I always assumed it was both races in their entirety.

[Mongoose]

The GTA is presented as being a rather autocratic government, at least in some respects, and the PVE is, obviously enough, an empire, so I don't know that there would really be any functional difference between those two entities.

[Solatar]

I doubt there would be any difference, but there would have to be for spies to be feasible.  Honestly, it's not like a human can learn to speak Vasudan and infiltrate their military.  In order for spies to be effective, you would already have to have civilians living on each other's planets.  Since the war broke out soon after contact, that seems unlikely as well.