[Mars]

You guys know he's being sarcastic, right?

[High Max]

*_*

[NGTM-1R]

If we all sit around waiting for everyone else to apologise for 'what they did' several decades or centuries ago, then, quite frankly, we are screwed.

A lot of people crap on Japan's leaders for visiting the Yasukuni shrine for Japan's war dead, and frankly I think those people are full of crap themselves. To refuse to honor those who died for your country is a very slippery slope. However this is a real and very serious issue in that Japan actively denies responsiblity for documented atrocities, refuses to grant reperations to survivors of them, and in general behaves like they've forgetton the whole Second World War. After the war the US occupation force ended up having to protect Japan's veterans. While some kind of outrage at the military was probably unavoidable considering how utterly ineptly stupid their handling of the war was at the high command level, it wasn't directed at those people exclusively or even in spillover, but the rank and file. Because Japan wanted to erase the past.

In WWII, USA killed many Japanese and their civilians too. So maybe Japan doesn't need to apologize since they lost much more and suffered too much in the past, more than USA, including innocents civvies. Pearl Harbor seemed like an attack towards USA military only and little to no callatoral damage. Also, Japan has helped USA with certain technology and imports for a while now and actions speak louder than words. Time to move on.

We aren't the ones who want, or need, an apology. Japan's behavior in China, Malaya, Borneo, the Phillipines, however, needs it. Japan, in China alone, commited atrocities to match or exceed the Holocaust or Stalin's purges. Does Germany not need to clearly remember and to apologize for killing the Jews?

Also your historical scholarship and indeed scholarship in general is bullcrap. I will engage with it at some other time, as I lack the patience at the moment.

[General Battuta]

Nuclear's average post quality has went down the pooper over the past few months.

Because he doesn't agree with you? That seems a bit harsh. 

[Flipside]

Thing is, I suppose it's because I live in Europe, where we've been taking turns at commiting atrocities on each other for centuries. If we waited for England, France, Germany, Spain, Italy and Holland to apologise for all the terrible things they've done to each other, Europe, even in its current state would never exist.

It's one thing wanting an apology, it's another thing treating a country as though they 'owe' something until they apologise, it's usually better to build strong ties to the country in question, and then start talking about the problems of the past.

[High Max]

*_*

[Kosh]

If we all sit around waiting for everyone else to apologise for 'what they did' several decades or centuries ago, then, quite frankly, we are screwed.

It isn't that easy when there are many people who are still alive that lived through such terrible atrocities. What if there was a country that invaded your country, committed all kinds of horrible atrocities to your grand parents, and after a third party came in and crushed them, they sit on the other sit of the border smugly looking down on you while simultaneously refusing to take any sort of responsibility for it?

[karajorma]

I don't really care to dwell on these little primitive war battles

Then don't post ridiculously long posts which practically shout your ignorance on the matter.

If you know nothing about the subject and don't wish to know then don't speak about it at all.

[Kosh]

That doesn't make them all in on it or all responsible for the war.

It makes them an accomplice because they supported the government.

I don't care that the civilians and kids in Japanese schools back then were taught basics on how to defend themselves against US forces. That doesn't make them all in on it or all responsible for the war

A.) It was Japan that started the war with the US
B.) They supported the government

I'll respect you more though if you don't call me stupid directly or indirectly and don't be arrogant.

I suggest you take your own advice.

[zookeeper]

That doesn't make them all in on it or all responsible for the war.

It makes them an accomplice because they supported the government.

I don't care that the civilians and kids in Japanese schools back then were taught basics on how to defend themselves against US forces. That doesn't make them all in on it or all responsible for the war

A.) It was Japan that started the war with the US
B.) They supported the government

Sounds like you don't disagree with what you quoted there, however.

[Kosh]

It was disagreeing. He was saying civilians are not responsible at least in part for their country bombing other countries even though they supported that government. I said he's wrong.

[Flipside]

Wasn't Japan ruled by a non-diplomatic system back then?

[zookeeper]

It was disagreeing. He was saying civilians are not responsible at least in part for their country bombing other countries even though they supported that government. I said he's wrong.

You lie. He was saying that "that doesn't make them [civilians and kids] all in on it or all responsible for the war" which is a completely different statement, and one which you don't disagree with.

[Kosh]

Wasn't Japan ruled by a non-diplomatic system back then?

Which was supported by the people, and was quite popular. They very much believed in what they were doing right up to the very end.

You lie. He was saying that "that doesn't make them [civilians and kids] all in on it or all responsible for the war" which is a completely different statement, and one which you don't disagree with.

I don't appreciate being called a liar, and that is not how I interpreted his statement.

[Flipside]

I think you'll find in the main part, people supported the Government because it was stability, and because they were in for a world of pain if they spoke out about it, the Japanese people believed what they were told, like most countries citizens, and you can rest assured they were not told 'We are going to go out and torture, rape and kill our way across the Pacific".

Sorry Kosh, but I disagree with you here, saying that a country ruled by a Dictatorial style Emperor should be held responsible in its entirety for commited atrocities is like saying that every citizen in Iraq is guilty of gassing Kurds. Resistance in Japan was subtle, and the country had hundreds of years of inground obedience to the Government, they didn't choose their Emperor and they had no tools to resist the Emperor and were, like every populace, fed on propoganda and lies to make them believe they were in the right.

Edit: It needs to be remembered that Japan had a long history of feudal inter-clan wars that were particulary barbaric in nature, almost as barbaric as the wars that united China, doesn't make it 'right', but it doesn't make the entire populace complicit in what amounted to arguments between nobility in which they were nothing more than the tools of war.

[Rick James]

Eh.

/thread, really.

[zookeeper]

You lie. He was saying that "that doesn't make them [civilians and kids] all in on it or all responsible for the war" which is a completely different statement, and one which you don't disagree with.

I don't appreciate being called a liar, and that is not how I interpreted his statement.

There's nothing to interpret. That's what he said, and then you claimed he had said something completely different. Twisting "that the civilians and kids in Japanese schools back then were taught basics on how to defend themselves against US forces doesn't make them all in on it or all responsible for the war" into "civilians are not responsible at least in part for their country bombing other countries even though they supported that government" isn't an interpretation, it's just twisting it into something completely different.

[Kosh]

That's what he said,

In context with "only the senior japanese military should apologize because they were the only ones responsible" it made it very clear what his real meaning was, unless he was contradicting himself.

[zookeeper]

That's what he said,

In context with "only the senior japanese military should apologize because they were the only ones responsible" it made it very clear what his real meaning was, unless he was contradicting himself.

Quote for the bolded part? At least I can't see one. Also, what is the "real meaning" here then? "No civilians were responsible for the war", or something else?

[High Max]

*_*