[NGTM-1R]

That's a rather serious change from the book, where the Volturi were the most pansy of the pansy-assed.

[Nuclear1]

Well, I never finished the book, so I really have no basis for comparison.  But any group that actually lures entire tour groups into its lair and eats them all is at least 100x more hardcore than the Cullens.

[NGTM-1R]

At this rate, we might actually get the awesome fight that Breaking Dawn denied us in the book.

[QuantumDelta]

Thanks Rian/Batt, Mongoose; I read the manga, the anime isn't exactly 'new' if you consider it's an almost exact-reprint

[Mongoose]

No, but it's in living color, with voices!

(I actually haven't seen any of it myself, though I presumably will at some point.)

[Stealth]

It's in every version of the bible used by anyone who matters a damn. I don't think a single major printing of it has not used that. The only people I can think of who don't want that passage in are Conservapedia. And there was one other person who could have thrown the first stone, prompting Jesus to yell "MOM!" Or did you forget that part?

Besides, are you saying that wasn't the point? That the whole "he without sin won't stone the sinner, wtf are you doing you hypocrites?" was not the whole message? Or do you just have serious problems interpreting subtext?

sorry to bring this thread back, but just had to respond to this one:
NGTM-1R = Mary was not perfect.
That is all.

[NGTM-1R]

sorry to bring this thread back, but just had to respond to this one:
NGTM-1R = Mary was not perfect.
That is all.

See, the problem with that is if she wasn't, then Jesus wasn't either because that's how Original Sin rolls.

[perihelion]

There's a actually pretty huge segment of Christianity that does not believe in Original Sin.  The idea being that children are born innocent, in no need of salvation until they become old enough to become morally accountable.  Sin isn't inherited, it's just inevitable because human beings are imperfect.  So Jesus did not "inherit" sin from Mary, nor did he ever commit sin during his life on Earth.  So, when the events of that passage took place, he was the only one without sin.

[Tangent] Seriously, I never got this whole Mary-worship thing.  I've been a Christian for about 1/3 of my life now, and that idea makes even less sense to me now than when I was still agnostic.  How is Mary-worship not idolatry? [/tangent]

[Ford Prefect]

Within the Roman Catholic Church, Mary is venerated as a saint, and the veneration of saints is considered an indirect way of worshiping Christ by honoring those through whom he did his work. But you certainly wouldn't be alone in your confusion on this matter. Objection to Marian veneration was one of the central issues of the Protestant Reformation.

Personally, I count myself among those who see a strong element of eroticism in the veneration of Mary, especially during the Renaissance. And, in any case, it's an aspect of Christianity around which a great deal of beautiful music has arisen, so I'm disinclined to fault Christians for self-contradiction on this matter.

[NGTM-1R]

There's a actually pretty huge segment of Christianity that does not believe in Original Sin.  The idea being that children are born innocent, in no need of salvation until they become old enough to become morally accountable.  Sin isn't inherited, it's just inevitable because human beings are imperfect.  So Jesus did not "inherit" sin from Mary, nor did he ever commit sin during his life on Earth.  So, when the events of that passage took place, he was the only one without sin.

I'm pretty sure most if not all sects you can name would classify such a belief as heretical^TM.

Now far be it from to dictate God just changed the rules on it for only Jesus, 'cuz he's God and he can do that kind of thing, but a lot of us like to pretend he's a consistant sort.

[Mongoose]

[Tangent] Seriously, I never got this whole Mary-worship thing.  I've been a Christian for about 1/3 of my life now, and that idea makes even less sense to me now than when I was still agnostic.  How is Mary-worship not idolatry? [/tangent]

As Ford Prefect stated, Mary is not worshiped by the Catholic Church, but instead venerated as a saint.  As with any saint, the phrasing of the Ave Maria/Hail Mary asks her to "pray for us sinners;" the prayer is not directed at her as a deity.  Due to her unique role as the mother of Christ, Mary is generally viewed as being the ultimate intercessor for those who invoke her prayer.  The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was part of Catholic tradition to some degree for many centuries, though it wasn't until 1854 that it was established as infallible dogma.  In general, devotion to Mary is something that can be traced back to very early Christians.

[Scotty]

There's a actually pretty huge segment of Christianity that does not believe in Original Sin.  The idea being that children are born innocent, in no need of salvation until they become old enough to become morally accountable.  Sin isn't inherited, it's just inevitable because human beings are imperfect.  So Jesus did not "inherit" sin from Mary, nor did he ever commit sin during his life on Earth.  So, when the events of that passage took place, he was the only one without sin.

I'm pretty sure most if not all sects you can name would classify such a belief as heretical^TM.

I think it says sin shall be visited to the xth generation, but does it actually say that sin, as itself, not as punishment, is inherited?

And, strictly speaking, heretical just means "not what I think."  If I like vanilla more than chocolate , and you like chocolate more than vanilla, that's heresy.

[NGTM-1R]

Strictly speaking, the strict definition of heretical is not at issue here.

[Stealth]

sorry to bring this thread back, but just had to respond to this one:
NGTM-1R = Mary was not perfect.
That is all.

See, the problem with that is if she wasn't, then Jesus wasn't either because that's how Original Sin rolls.

But then if Mary was perfect, then her parents must be, and if they were, then THEIR parents must be. right?
...didn't work like that.  Mary was not perfect - she grew old and died (i.e. not perfect).  Jesus was - that's not really disputable - if you believe in the Bible, then it's a given that he was perfect.  Of course if you don't believe in the bible, that's another story.

But no, Mary was not perfect.  Neither was Jesus' father Joseph.

I challenge you to read the bible and come to your OWN understanding of it.  "Studying" the bible doesn't mean picking up a $15.99 copy of the King James bible from Walmart.  Challenge yourself... compare the original greek, hebrew, and aramaic texts.  Find inconsistencies.  Come to your own understanding and conclusion.

[Stealth]

I've been a Christian for about 1/3 of my life now, and that idea makes even less sense to me now than when I was still agnostic.  How is Mary-worship not idolatry? [/tangent]

You're right on - it is idolatry.

Mary is not worshiped by the Catholic Church, but instead venerated as a saint

Venerated, worshipped, at the end of the day, any religion that has 60 foot paintings of Mary ('saint' or otherwise), has images, statues, and sculptures of her all over the church, etc. - is practicing idolatry.  Period.

[Thaeris]

Stealth is right, I'm afraid. Though the intent might not have been to elevate Mary to a status she has, the result is quite clear.

[NGTM-1R]

Venerated, worshipped, at the end of the day, any religion that has 60 foot paintings of Mary ('saint' or otherwise), has images, statues, and sculptures of her all over the church, etc. - is practicing idolatry.  Period.

Any religion that isn't Islam is practicing idolatry by those standards.

[Stealth]

No, there are religions (Christian religoins) that don't have images, statues, etc. of saints, or any other individual (God or otherwise) in their churches.

[NGTM-1R]

No, there are religions (Christian religoins) that don't have images, statues, etc. of saints, or any other individual (God or otherwise) in their churches.

And no Jesus on the cross, no cross at all in fact, no stained glass depictions of it, no...you get the idea. Idolatry is a very loosely defined thing. Islam's the only religion which is fully compliant to that sort of thing.

[redsniper]

no Jesus on the cross, no cross at all in fact, no stained glass depictions of it, no...you get the idea.

Sounds a lot like a Mormon meetinghouse actually.