[General Battuta]

I guess even religion isn't immune to rules-lawyering, darn it.

[pecenipicek]

hey, at least it aint D&D

[General Battuta]

No, actually, that doesn't say anything at all.

Man, religion. It really is like D&D. People don't care about playing by the spirit of the game, they just want to finagle the rules to get maximum advantage for their characters.

[redsniper]

Jesus always rolls 20s.

[General Battuta]

Is Jesus divine rank 0? He qualifies as a demigod, right, not a full deity?

[pecenipicek]

Jesus always rolls 20s.

dunno bout that, i think he rolled a one after being stuck to a cross after awhile

[Liberator]

Is Jesus divine rank 0? He qualifies as a demigod, right, not a full deity?

He is simultaneously God and man.  At the same time.

[Thaeris]

Is Jesus divine rank 0? He qualifies as a demigod, right, not a full deity?

He is simultaneously God and man.  At the same time.

Yalp. Aptly put. Another way to state this is that Jesus was God in the flesh.

[General Battuta]

So that's divine rank 0, right? Or do I have to go look up the rules for avatars? What's the Christian/Muslim/Jewish god, anyway, a major deity or an overgod?

(I was raised Christian, I know how Jesus works, thanks.)

[Thaeris]

  What is this, Battuta? D&D for faith/religion?

In Christian, Jewish, and Moslem faith, there is only ONE God, which you're well aware of. I'm not familiar with the entire scope of Islamic views on God, as I'm a Christian, but there is certainly no power above God, and no power can commit action without the "concent" of God, so-to-say. That, I'm sure, is consitant regardless of the religion.

[General Battuta]

I'm trying to figure out what Jesus is in the D&D ruleset for gods so we know whether he always rolls twenties. Only major deities automatically roll twenties.

Meanwhile we have to figure out whether God/Allah/Yahweh is a major deity or an overgod. I'm leaning towards major deity since he actively takes an interest in the world and he has competition from other pantheons.

[Mongoose]

The amount of sheer ignorance and misinformation going on during the last page or two really is hilarious.  I'd make a comment about the issues that "sola scriptura" tends to have broadcasting themselves loud and clear, but I don't really feel like going down that road.  So let's instead take a look at that old familiar story that Topgun quoted, when Charlton Heston came down from the mountain and got pissed at his people.  "Thou shalt not make a graven image," giant golden calf, yadda yadda yadda.  So, boys and girls, who can tell me what the actual commandment-breaking in this instance was?  Was it just the act of making a giant gold bull for the hell of it?  Nope.  Was it treating said golden bull as some sort of metaphorical symbol for God?  Nope again.  Was it because they were treating that particular physical golden bull as if were God himself?  Bingo!  The prohibition isn't about making a simple image of whatever...it's about making a simple image and then venerating said image as a divinity in and of itself, about worshiping that golden calf as Baal incarnate.  Intention is everything here.  Hanging a cross on a wall, or putting up a statue of Mary in a church, means nothing in and of itself; they're symbols for theological principles, not physical deities toward which worship is directed in and of themselves.  The Catholic Church has a term for such objects, and even actions, in the case of making the sign of the cross: they're "sacramentals," objects and practices that provide a physical reference to aid in the understanding of one's faith.  The only "idolatry" going on here is that generated by a misinterpretation of the word.

And oh, Topgun, I do find the claim that "it doesn't matter what Jesus died on" amusing from a practical standpoint, considering what the worldly symbol of Christianity has been almost since its inception.  I understand your underlying point, but I'd argue that even the visual aspect matters a great deal.

(Keep that up, Battuta, it's quite amusing. )

[Thaeris]

In that case, He definately always rolls a twenty. 

And if you do kill him, don't worry... He'll be back in three days. 

[Jeff Vader]

Um, I was, like, totally gonna split this thread but, um, I can't make out where one discussion ends and another one, like, begins. There are books, and D&D, and Jesus (pronounced Hay-Soos), so... carry on.

[Stealth]

The amount of sheer ignorance and misinformation going on during the last page or two really is hilarious.  I'd make a comment about the issues that "sola scriptura" tends to have broadcasting themselves loud and clear, but I don't really feel like going down that road.  So let's instead take a look at that old familiar story that Topgun quoted, when Charlton Heston came down from the mountain and got pissed at his people.  "Thou shalt not make a graven image," giant golden calf, yadda yadda yadda.  So, boys and girls, who can tell me what the actual commandment-breaking in this instance was?  Was it just the act of making a giant gold bull for the hell of it?  Nope.  Was it treating said golden bull as some sort of metaphorical symbol for God?  Nope again.  Was it because they were treating that particular physical golden bull as if were God himself?  Bingo!  The prohibition isn't about making a simple image of whatever...it's about making a simple image and then venerating said image as a divinity in and of itself, about worshiping that golden calf as Baal incarnate.  Intention is everything here.  Hanging a cross on a wall, or putting up a statue of Mary in a church, means nothing in and of itself; they're symbols for theological principles, not physical deities toward which worship is directed in and of themselves.  The Catholic Church has a term for such objects, and even actions, in the case of making the sign of the cross: they're "sacramentals," objects and practices that provide a physical reference to aid in the understanding of one's faith.  The only "idolatry" going on here is that generated by a misinterpretation of the word.

And oh, Topgun, I do find the claim that "it doesn't matter what Jesus died on" amusing from a practical standpoint, considering what the worldly symbol of Christianity has been almost since its inception.  I understand your underlying point, but I'd argue that even the visual aspect matters a great deal.

(Keep that up, Battuta, it's quite amusing. )

we're not fools mongoose... but those idols of mary in churches aren't there just to look pretty... they're worshipped.

[General Battuta]

In that case, He definately always rolls a twenty. 

Not if he's DR 0.

And if you do kill him, don't worry... He'll be back in three days. 

I can cast contingent resurrection without a divine rank.

[NGTM-1R]

we're not fools mongoose... but those idols of mary in churches aren't there just to look pretty... they're worshipped.

And you know this how exactly? For all the bullcrap regularly feed about Marian veneration, even in Catholic publications, I've never seen it actually happen.

EDIT: In fact, I have to state that in my twenty-odd years of Catholicism before taking up the cause of humanistic deconversion, and also having regularly visited Lutheran, Menonite, and Baptist churches, I can't recall ever encountering a Marian "idol" even when the Church I attended every Sunday was Saint Mary's. The closest thing that comes to mind and the only actual depiction of Mary was that Saint Mary's did have a quite beautiful Pieta copy, but it was in the Parish Hall.

One could more readily argue that the statue of Gregory the Great out front of Saint Gregory the Great up the hill in Scripps is an "idol" even though repeated vandalism of its bronze quill was more its fate while I still attended.

Marian images are quite commonplace expressions of Catholic piety, it's true, but they typicially are neither explictly Mary alone, being always a twofer with the Baby Jesus, nor placed in a church; they are personal items, placed on walls as a visual reminder, or under mattresses for the protection of the child who sleeps there.

EDIT THE SECOND: And not only are you wrong...you didn't read Mongoose's post, thus proving yourself exactly what you say you're not.

[Scotty]

Contingent Resurrection is a one-minute delay, not 29 hours.

Besides, Jesus would fall under Greater Deity, and God himself (post Old Testament) would be a well-known overdiety with a few quirks.

Alternatively, Jesus is an Avatar and God has the Divine Creation salient divine ability.  Jesus also has Banestrike (against outsiders, evil), Gift of Life, and True Knowledge.

[General Battuta]

Didn't Jesus die of hit point loss? Or a failed Constitution save?

[pecenipicek]

he got to 0hp and the continuously failed to stabilise himself, and... well, as we all know, the rest is history