Author Topic: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)  (Read 30088 times)

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Offline Mr. Vega

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
What was also terrific was the fact that the white guy got the chieftains daughter, and became leader by doing something that all of the natives who had spent their entire lives learning how to survive in the jungle could not do. Mighty Whitey, anyone?

Avatar; when you can assuage your guilt over oppressing the other races while not having to give up any of your white privilege!
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Offline esarai

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
I don't get the logic behind this opinion that Avatar is a way to "assuage your guilt."  It doesn't do anything to make me feel better about the fact that us European descendants completely decimated native populations and practically enslaved the entire world with our cultures.  It's a guilt no movie can or will ever undo, no matter how people may try to make us feel better.  

And I don't see the "without having to give up any of your white privilege."  The key point of the movie is that Jake specifically gave up his human (hence white) self.  Remember at the end?  His human body dies.

And I think you're making too much of a jump there, Mr. Vega.  There is no evidence to suggest specifically that the Na'vi could not do what Jake did.  For all we know, they could be perfectly capable of bonding with Toruk.  But were they willing to risk it?  It's incredibly dangerous and likely to result in their death.  If a Na'vi tries, they put more at stake than Jake does. Jake is in a special position--he doesn't have anything left before that maneuver.  He's dead if he goes back to the humans, he's dead if he attempts to contact the Na'vi, and Grace is dying.  I don't think it's a question of ability more than a question of willingness.  The opportunity cost for a Na'vi was much greater than for Jake.  Should the attempt fail, a Na'vi would've lost everything.  Jake would lose nothing.  Hence, the benefits are far greater for Jake than for a Na'vi.  And I got the feeling that Na'vi culture made becoming Toruk Mak'tau something to be done only in times of great need, and not done at the whims of ego.  We also neglected the fact that the Na'vi have a different belief system than ours, and where we might see Toruk as a steed to serve our purposes, they might see it as a kind of deity to be respected.  It's too much to say Jake did what the Na'vi could not do.  It's more accurate to say he did what they we're not willing and/or ready to do.

And Jake becomes war leader, yes, but there is nothing to suggest he assumes the role of chieftain after the battle.  Before the battle, he recognizes Tsu'tey as the chieftain.

This Mighty Whitey thing doesn't seem realistic.  I don't see Avatar as portraying Jake as "superior."  In most regards, his Na'vi skills are shown to be weaker than those of true Na'vi.  In many ways, this movie is about the inferiority of the humans (white stand-ins).  They're powerful, but in a very misguided and idiotic way.  I'd say that's very true of current western societies.  What you're saying makes Jake "superior" isn't his skills or his genetics.  It's his desperation.  And given the similarities between humans and Na'vi, I'd hazard that if Jake had not gone and got Toruk, a Na'vi would've done it sooner or later.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 04:54:26 pm by esarai »
<Nuclear>   truth: the good samaritan actually checked for proof of citizenship and health insurance
<Axem>   did anyone catch jesus' birth certificate?
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<Axem>and he was totally pro tax breaks
<Axem>he threw out all those tax collectors at the temple
<Nuclear>   he drove a V8 camel too
<Nuclear>   with a sword rack for his fully-automatic daggers

Esarai: hey gaiz, what's a good improvised, final attack for a ship fighting to buy others time to escape to use?
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Offline blowfish

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
For all we know, they could be perfectly capable of bonding with Turok.

They are.  And apparently, it has already happened (5 times since "the time of the first songs").  Clearly, it's not something you just do though.  I suppose you could say Jake is on shaky ground because normally Toruk chooses its rider, whereas he made the conscious choice to become Toruk Makto.  Maybe not though.  This is shaky too, but Toruk did try to kill him, on his first flight.  Just something to think about...

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
What was also terrific was the fact that the white guy got the chieftains daughter, and became leader by doing something that all of the natives who had spent their entire lives learning how to survive in the jungle could not do. Mighty Whitey, anyone?

Avatar; when you can assuage your guilt over oppressing the other races while not having to give up any of your white privilege!

Actually, I agree with this analysis. I just don't think it stopped it from being a great movie.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Watched it in its full 3D glory today. Felt very entertained, despite a by-the-numbers plot.

Also, while I slightly cringed at all the very american psychoses apparent in the script (seriously, it's what I imagine watching a WW2 movie made by Germans is like for non-germans), I still got my money's worth.

EDIT: to quote TVTropes:

Quote
There is a third group. Those who went to see the archetypal-plot, passable-acting, formulaic message, entertaining backstory, glorious visuals, and battle scenes the likes of which God has never seen, and were utterly satisfied.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 05:52:18 pm by The E »
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
That's a great way to sum up my feelings for it (just saw it in 3D yesterday).  The plot was completely predictable and by-the-numbers for the most part (Ferngully meets Pocahontas with a smattering of GITS, right? :p), and the characters were all archetypal...but I honestly didn't give a damn, because the the world was so orgasmically gorgeous and immersive.  I think I could have spent hours just sitting there, watching everyone run/fly/ride through those forests.  I've been a fan of the Myst series for years, and so much of that movie felt for all the world like I was sitting down in front of one of the games, winding my way through some alien environment.  The direction during the action sequences was utterly brilliant, as well.  It was definitely well-worth seeing in theaters.

(I was also surprised at just how natural the 3D became after only a short time, as I'd never seen a movie using it before.  It wasn't even something that I consciously noticed most of the time, but it definitely helped add to the immersion.)

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Yep, I saw it yesterday in 3D. Well, it was fun to watch, but not really a great movie. Anthropologically, it was an interesting movie with the first two thirds. It wasn't exactly realistic by any means, but I can understand why they made the aliens like they did; it's no fun trying to personify something that you cannot fathom the way it thinks. And for the action scenes, my previous assumptions were almost right. It was pretty stupid. However fun to watch, somehow I don't think "Throw all of your forces at the enemy as hard as you can and hope you win" is a good military tactic. Also, it was pretty ridiculous how they eliminated about 60% of the important characters all within 60 seconds of each other.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Your assumptions about the action scenes were so not right.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Your assumptions about the action scenes were so not right.
Well, they kind of were. It was a CHAAAAAAAAAARGE!!! attack/ambush. Like Verdun.



Anyway I watched the film again, this time in 3D. It wasn't in any way different an experience to 2D, but that's not saying much; I still found it great. I think I actually enjoyed bits of it more the second time, because I knew what was gonna happen.

I didn't find the final battle scenes so ludicrous second time round - The humans actually won with relatively minor casualties against the Na'vi forces until the entire world started trying to kill them. Which is actually kind of interesting, given how that we as a species probably wouldn't survive if all the animals in the world flipped out and started attacking us. It also reminded me for some reason of European invaders bringing diseases to which the natives had no resistance, just the other way round....


Maybe I should stop thinking out loud on a fully public forum.

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
You do have a point there, though.
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Your assumptions about the action scenes were so not right.

 :wtf: Did we watch the same movie? Because it sure looked to me like the marines deployed a couple platoons of infantry and a few walkers on the ground, and then left. You don't do that in a place like that. It'd be one thing if the flux hadn't magically wiped out BVR and most sensing equipment, but even then, had the natives bothered to even try to set up an ambush, I'd be willing to bet that they wouldn't have to be defendant on the animals. But what do they do? They charge straight at the front of their line with these massive ****ing horses. The only reason they got close enough to marines to inflict any casualties at all was because marine command was stupid enough to deploy them in the middle of a forest. But why on Earth would the marines want to fight where they had the advantage? And why would you need a ground force if you were going to bomb their holy grounds in the first place?

The air battle was marginally more reasonable. I'm willing to grant that the Na'vi have good enough sight, reflexes, balance, practice riding fly creatures, and aim with a bow to shoot out a helicopter's pilot and a plane's gunner, but why'd they split up so much? It looked like only a few bothered to even try to attack the bomber, which seems like it should've been their main objective. I was happy that they at least tried to attack with the sun at their back, but I'm willing to bet that if they concentrated their force on the bomber during the outbreak of the fighting, they could've taken it down during the initial confusion of the fight. And why did the marines have to resort to pushing the explosives out of the back of a "bomber" (cargo plane)? I'd think that any of those gunships is more than capable of flying at higher altitudes and dropping actual bombs, or heck, just flying at higher altitudes and shooting dumbfire rockets straight down at the holy place. But no, they fly right through the damn middle of all of those floaty rocks and magical flux. Who cares if the Na'vi have been living there, practicing flying and hunting without any sort of BVR to get messed up for thousands of years?

Or did I miss something that makes all of this okay?

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
You missed the Rule of Cool, for one. :p

 

Offline blowfish

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
*snip*

True, I would have expected more guerilla tactics on their part.

 

Offline esarai

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
I think a topside attack would've been complicated by those massive arches surrounding the Tree of Souls.

Plus, if your end objective is to totally and utterly destroy something in such a way that it completely crushes your opponent's morale, you'll want to do it with as much force as possible, to make it as impressive and terrifying as possible, so that the enemy will not question your superiority and not even consider resistance.  I think that's why the colonel decided to use the mining explosives instead of conventional missiles--he wanted some intense shock factor.

But mostly, I agree with Mongoose: Rule of Cool.  
<Nuclear>   truth: the good samaritan actually checked for proof of citizenship and health insurance
<Axem>   did anyone catch jesus' birth certificate?
<Nuclear>   and jesus didnt actually give the 5000 their fish...he gave it to the romans and let it trickle down
<Axem>and he was totally pro tax breaks
<Axem>he threw out all those tax collectors at the temple
<Nuclear>   he drove a V8 camel too
<Nuclear>   with a sword rack for his fully-automatic daggers

Esarai: hey gaiz, what's a good improvised, final attack for a ship fighting to buy others time to escape to use?
RangerKarl|AtWork: stick your penis in the warp core
DarthGeek: no don't do that
amki: don't EVER do that

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
Your assumptions about the action scenes were so not right.
*snip*

All of this is predicated on the belief that people consistently make optimal tactical decisions, which they do not.

The battle scenes were well in line with what we saw in analogous historical situations, and the movie had the courage to show the high-tech forces actually slaughtering the natives. It was the total opposite of Endor.

The Na'vi had no tradition of tactical warfare, just of individualistic hunting.

They couldn't just bomb the tree from above because it was shielded by all the floating mountains.

Of course, the marines had no way fo knowing that the planetary biosphere was alive and aware, so they couldn't end up prepared for that.

The movie did everything you could have wanted from it on a tactical level.

 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
All of this is predicated on the belief that people consistently make optimal tactical decisions, which they do not.

That's true to an extent. But unless the future is totally screwed up, someone does not make Colonel and be put in charge of security by being stupid and unaware of their surroundings. And I don't think Cameron was trying to say that the future is totally screwed up in that way.

Quote
The battle scenes were well in line with what we saw in analogous historical situations, and the movie had the courage to show the high-tech forces actually slaughtering the natives. It was the total opposite of Endor.

This is pretty much true, even if the only reason the Marines managed to slaughter anyone was because they had guns and the natives strolled out right in front of their line.

Quote
The Na'vi had no tradition of tactical warfare, just of individualistic hunting.

Reasonable, but you'd think that they'd at least try and apply what they know of hunting to fighting. When they hunt, they don't unsurreptitiously charge their prey as soon as they spot it. I can understand how this applies to the areal fight, but I don't think that's a very reasonable explanation of the way they fought on the ground.

Quote
They couldn't just bomb the tree from above because it was shielded by all the floating mountains.

I could see how this would make it difficult, but there were plenty of scenes of the battlegroup from above and clearly not totally encased by rocks, and while it would difficult, it wouldn't be impossible. Still, difficult is bad. But that doesn't mean you couldn't have a gunship task force fly in above the magic mountains and dive in on the sight. It's much less of a target than those huge ships, and flying in above the mountains would put them in a more advantageous position, not having to fight the Na'vi while surrounded by a whole bunch of rocks.

Quote
Of course, the marines had no way fo knowing that the planetary biosphere was alive and aware, so they couldn't end up prepared for that.

Well, seeing as how they so conveniently ignored their science staff, that's true. But they still knew the risks of being out in the open on Pandora, what do you think the Colonel was talking about in the first part of the movie? I could see this justifying them not expecting the animals to attack, but it's no excuse to just chuck a bunch of infantry in the middle of a random jungle for no apparent reason, because they knew the dangers of being out there. Sure they coped with the ones they expected, but the only reason they did that was because, supposedly, their foe couldn't fathom a way to fight them other than charging straight at them.

Quote
The movie did everything you could have wanted from it on a tactical level.

There's a line where "the characters are stupid" becomes an unreasonable justification for this kind of stuff, and I honestly think that this crossed it.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
The characters were not stupid. They acted the way people do in real life.

The last two big wars we've been in have been big lessons in strategic humility. I see no reason why we would have become less fallible by the year Avatar is set.

Your argument that the characters were stupid is doubly odd because everything the Marines did worked beautifully, up until the point where the entire planet decided to screw them over.

And didn't you say you haven't seen Aliens? The most believable, realistic piece of military science fiction ever filmed? You need to see Aliens.


 

Offline Polpolion

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
The characters were not stupid. They acted the way people do in real life.

The last two big wars we've been in have been big lessons in strategic humility. I see no reason why we would have become less fallible by the year Avatar is set.

Your argument that the characters were stupid is doubly odd because everything the Marines did worked beautifully, up until the point where the entire planet decided to screw them over.

And didn't you say you haven't seen Aliens? The most believable, realistic piece of military science fiction ever filmed? You need to see Aliens.



I was using harsher language in my responses than I should have been, but I stand by what I meant to say: A ground force was totally unnecessary in this operation. I do give you that what the marine's were doing was working up until the planet decided to poop on them, but it could have been done better. And this is forgetting what the Na'vi were doing. Even without an understanding of warfare, thousands of years of hunting in the jungle should've done something more to help them fight on the ground (which is why ground fighting should've been avoided by the marines). Things worked out the way they did up until the planet took a side because of mutual incompetence. After that, there were simply too many mindless animals trying to kill the marines to fail.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Avatar (aka Dances With Smurfs)
The tribes that were active on the ground were not from the jungle. They were from the plains. They had not been hunting in the jungle for thousands of years. Planets are large.

The way in which the Na'vi fought was not historically dissimilar to the way in which indigenous groups often engaged colonial armies: fractiously, traditionally, and catastrophically.

There were no mindless animals trying to kill the marines. There were very minded animals doing so.

Go see Aliens.

 

Offline Turambar

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