[Blue Lion]

There was nothing inside it. It was a bunch of wires. The guy was holding it plain sight, showing it to his classmates.

It did not look like a bomb.

It obviously did because they called the police on it. Why would they call the police if they didn't think it looked like a bomb?

The article says the person who saw it thought it was harmful.

[Thaeris]

There's a lot of nonsense out there. I'm familiar with it firsthand, though not like this.

[General Battuta]

There was nothing inside it. It was a bunch of wires. The guy was holding it plain sight, showing it to his classmates.

It did not look like a bomb.

It obviously did because they called the police on it. Why would they call the police if they didn't think it looked like a bomb?

The article says the person who saw it thought it was harmful.

Because he was trained in a culture of fear, distrust, and harmful paranoia.

[Blue Lion]

There was nothing inside it. It was a bunch of wires. The guy was holding it plain sight, showing it to his classmates.

It did not look like a bomb.

It obviously did because they called the police on it. Why would they call the police if they didn't think it looked like a bomb?

The article says the person who saw it thought it was harmful.

Because he was trained in a culture of fear, distrust, and harmful paranoia.

Absolutely. Kids have been known to use bombs at schools. Schools and police would rather do silly runs than let the bombs go through because otherwise they look paranoid.

Will the 99.9% of the time make us look like fools? Sure will. But the .1% it is a bomb we'll have a much better chance of being on it.

How would I, as a layman, know what is and is not a bomb?

[General Battuta]

When the costs of your security procedures exceed the benefits, then it's time to abandon the procedures.

[Blue Lion]

When the costs of your security procedures exceed the benefits, then it's time to abandon the procedures.

I'm curious what formula you used to determine it wasn't worth it.

[General Battuta]

Comparing the probability of a school bombing multiplied by the total resultant distress to the probability of a false positive multiplied by the total resultant distress. Though you'd also have to factor in the effectiveness of such training precautions (probably low.)

[Blue Lion]

You put values on the resultant distress of a successful school bombing? Did you include friends and families? Neighbors? Other nearby schools? Property damage? Was it a big bomb that did damage to the school or a tiny bomb that just did superficial damage?

How many failed bombing distresses are equal to one actual bombing distress? Do bombs where no one dies count less than ones that do kill people?

Do bombs that kill adults count more or less than one that kill kids?

And remember, you're the one who made value judgments.

That's the beauty of the plans most schools and businesses take (I'm sure you place of employment has a very similar policy). They don't have to decide if it's worth it. It's always worth it.

[General Battuta]

No, again, it's not. You can put almost arbitrarily large values on the distress caused by school bombings and it would still not be worth it.

School bombings are preposterously rare. School fires, for example, are a much more legitimate concern. If you were to take all the time, money, words, and thoughts spent on school bombings and transfer them to school fires, you would save more lives.

We've just been fooled into thinking they're something even worth worrying about due to media exposure and the availability heuristic.

[Blue Lion]

No, again, it's not. You can put almost arbitrarily large values on the distress caused by school bombings and it would still not be worth it.

School bombings are preposterously rare. School fires, for example, are a much more legitimate concern. If you were to take all the time, money, words, and thoughts spent on school bombings and transfer them to school fires, you would save more lives.

We've just been fooled into thinking they're something even worth worrying about due to media exposure and the availability heuristic.

So again I ask, I see an object that I think is a bomb, what do I do?

I'm also curious how many false alarms there are in bomb attempts. Do you know? How many real school bomb attempts were there and how many times in the same period were the police called in for an item that wasn't a bomb?

Because this whole argument is based on all the kids were ruining due to distress is more than the distress caused by actual bombings. Do you know how many there are?

On a slightly tangential subject. Who doesn't evacuate a building in terms of a bomb threat? I'm just curious how many people call in bomb threats and how many of them actually have bombs. I was under the impression you just evacuated no matter what. It didn't matter how many actually were true.

That's what's great about my argument, it's "better safe than sorry".

[General Battuta]

You should always evacuate in case of a bomb threat.

The entire problem here is the introduction of bomb to the scenario. It's absurd. The degree of hysteria required to train teachers to see unknown electronic devices as potential bombs is just outlandish. There have probably been more deaths by accidental pen and pencil stabs in school history, yet teachers are not trained to fear pens and pencils.

I'm not disputing much of anything after the 'potential bomb' step (well, up until the police robot and the home search; that's absurd.) But lightning from a cloudless sky is more likely to kill students.

If you see an unknown device in the hands of a friendly student and think is that a bomb? then you have a major problem.

And as a similar case, a friend of Rian's was nearly shot to death in Logan Airport because she was an MIT student with a piece of electronics she'd made.

[Thaeris]

Definative proof that people crave idiocy.

Simultaneously, conversing with an electrical engineer (and professor) about mundane electrical systems and issues reveals that most people have no friggin' clue about technical issues. And why is this? Although we seem to be a pretty competent group, most people hold this as some sort of arcane knowledge, if you will. That VP had little common sense it seems, but keeping the prior fact in mind, I can give a little sympathy for the moron...

[Blue Lion]

Couple points I'm gonna hit on.

One, you never told me what to do when I see a student with an object I think looks like a bomb.

Two, you never answered how many false alarms there are. You've said basically X > Y I'd like to know what X and Y are.

Three, I'm gonna wager the number of people who call in bomb threats and then actually have a bomb is very very low. That one time it's real, you don't want people sitting at their desk because you were sure it was just a prank becuase a prank is far far more likely.

Four, I'm slightly concerned by this...

"If you see an unknown device in the hands of a friendly student and think is that a bomb? then you have a major problem."

Who has to be holding an unknown device that looks like a bomb (a critical part) for you to do something? If it was that easy to spot students who would carry out attacks, there wouldn't be attacks. Teachers would spot them in a second.

And I know you go cause I asked you, but how many fire alarms get pulled at your college? If it's anything like the one I work at and the one I go to school at, all the time. You could pull that fire alarm every day for a week and  they'll come every time because this time could be a fire.

If you want to argue that people see things as bombs they shouldn't, that's a whole other thread. We can put up pictures and play "bomb or not a bomb". See who's the best.

These are people who aren't trained to deal with bombs, they're trained to deal with children. If I see an item that looks like it could be a bomb, I'm at least getting the principal, and believe me, the principal is no better bomb tech than I am.

[General Battuta]

To respond to all your points at once:

The problem is not what you do after you see the student with the object that looks like a bomb (although it should not involve the arson teams and police being repeatedly shown it's not a bomb and then calling in a robot and then searching a house.)

The problem is that you think it looks like a bomb in the first place. That you think it even remotely probable. That there is something about your heuristic pathways so divorced from the actual probabilities that this is such a high-order thought.

If someone calls in a bomb threat, evacuate. They said 'bomb'.

If someone pulls a  fire alarm, evacuate. It's a fire alarm.

But don't leave the building because a book fell in the hallway and the echoes sounded like an alarm and then you went and saw and decided it wasn't but maybe the alarm went off for just a second and then shorted out.

[Blue Lion]

Definative proof that people crave idiocy.

Simultaneously, conversing with an electrical engineer (and professor) about mundane electrical systems and issues reveals that most people have no friggin' clue about technical issues. And why is this? Although we seem to be a pretty competent group, most people hold this as some sort of arcane knowledge, if you will. That VP had little common sense it seems, but keeping the prior fact in mind, I can give a little sympathy for the moron...

You're surprised people with no background in electrical engineering don't know anything about electrical engineering?

I would like to think that, as a college educated person, I'm probably at least of average intelligence. I am a genius by no stretch of the imagination but I like to think I'm not stupid (insert jokes here).

That said, I'm almost certain I couldn't build a pipe bomb. If you showed me a bunch of objects and asked me to pick the bombs, I'm almost sure I'd get it wrong.

I'm curious why I should, as a person who can't tell if it's a bomb or not, should do anything but go get someone who knows.

[Blue Lion]

To respond to all your points at once:

The problem is not what you do after you see the student with the object that looks like a bomb (although it should not involve the arson teams and police being repeatedly shown it's not a bomb and then calling in a robot and then searching a house.)

The problem is that you think it looks like a bomb in the first place. That you think it even remotely probable. That there is something about your heuristic pathways so divorced from the actual probabilities that this is such a high-order thought.

If someone calls in a bomb threat, evacuate. They said 'bomb'.

If someone pulls a  fire alarm, evacuate. It's a fire alarm.

But don't leave the building because a book fell in the hallway and the echoes sounded like an alarm and then you went and saw and decided it wasn't but maybe the alarm went off for just a second and then shorted out.

Ok, what does a home made bomb look like? I'm gonna guess you can make a homemade bomb out of a lot of stuff. I'm also going to guess that these objects are household items, hence the name.

What, to you, is an acceptable "bomb like" object for a person with no engineering or technical training? How can I tell between a household object that is a motion detector and an object that is a bomb?

[General Battuta]

I don't know, ask the person holding it and showing it to his friends?

[Thaeris]

A home made bomb can look like anything. Learning how to make a bomb is pretty simple as well. Heck, even taking an introductory chemistry class will teach you the basics of "blow-up-ology."

I don't know what his device looked like (though I'd like a look at it...), but I really get the feeling this was really, really overblown. As in ragingly stupid on the part of the VP. I'm saying this as I've had (a.) personal experience with stupid school admin decisions and (b.) heard/seen evidence of similarly stupid judgements (Remember the little girl with the empty shotgun shell? Yeah...). This may in part be due to bull-headedness in terms of discipline/control of the students, which is also potentially a massive problem. Common sense goes a long way. As we weren't there to hear what went on between the VP and the student, we can't truly judge the logic of the VP. However, I'm pretty certain the logic of the VP was very much lacking...

[Blue Lion]

And he says it's a quantum jigglyboop designed to find neutrons in pickles.

That's a cute way of saying "What if he lies to me?"

He could have a steel pipe bomb with a little detonator on it and say "It's a barometer, the cylinder has a set pressure inside and this device reads the outside pressure" and I wouldn't be able to contradict him because I don't know.

I doubt the kid who made an explosive device is gonna go "Oh, it's a bomb, I was coming in to kill you all but you caught me. Here's how you turn it off. Let's go see the cops."

[General Battuta]

And he says it's a quantum jigglyboop designed to find neutrons in pickles.

That's a cute way of saying "What if he lies to me?"

He could have a steel pipe bomb with a little detonator on it and say "It's a barometer, the cylinder has a set pressure inside and this device reads the outside pressure" and I wouldn't be able to contradict him because I don't know.

I doubt the kid who made an explosive device is gonna go "Oh, it's a bomb, I was coming in to kill you all but you caught me. Here's how you turn it off. Let's go see the cops."

This is paranoia.

If he lies to you, then you're ****ed. Bomb goes off, people die. But the fact that you even consider that worth considering to a degree that will create trouble indicates that you are not aware of how incredibly rare this is.

Not once in history has a child of this age brought a bomb into school with the intention of detonating it and carried it around in public gleefully showing it off.

This hypothetical 'kid who made an explosive device' is less likely to exist than a spontaneous grand mal seizure on the kid's part. Are you prepared for that outcome?

A home made bomb can look like anything. Learning how to make a bomb is pretty simple as well. Heck, even taking an introductory chemistry class will teach you the basics of "blow-up-ology."

I don't know what his device looked like (though I'd like a look at it...), but I really get the feeling this was really, really overblown. As in ragingly stupid on the part of the VP. I'm saying this as I've had (a.) personal experience with stupid school admin decisions and (b.) heard/seen evidence of similarly stupid judgements (Remember the little girl with the empty shotgun shell? Yeah...). This may in part be due to bull-headedness in terms of discipline/control of the students, which is also potentially a massive problem. Common sense goes a long way. As we weren't there to hear what went on between the VP and the student, we can't truly judge the logic of the VP. However, I'm pretty certain the logic of the VP was very much lacking...

I concur.

I was brought in by a police officer in middle school for sketching designs for an SF story in a class notebook. A bit of talking sorted it out. In a situation like this, I imagine my home would've been searched.