Author Topic: Shivan Theories  (Read 39199 times)

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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Were it not for the ancients black box, I don't think intel would ever have had the bottle to send anyone after the lucifer when it jumps.
 
Or the inclination, now I think about it though. Whether the GTA knew about the shields failing in subspace or not i'd like the think they'd try and throw everything they could at the Lucifer before it jumped out to Sol.
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Offline Timerlane

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The big thing was the subspace tracking. The GTA/PVE knew their own shields(borrowed from Shivan tech) didn't work in subspace, so I wouldn't be surprised if they'd figured the same might be true for the Lucifer, but without knowing about subspace tracking, it would be useless conjecture.

What that says about the Ancients seems kind of sad, though. The tracking part was probably simple enough for the race that built massive subspace portals and conquered multiple galaxies, but somehow they never figured out the 'shields go away' part until they had apparently lost almost their entire empire. :P

No. Because the Ancients would have taken out the Terrans and Vasudans just as they did many other species.
Whatever their motives were, the Ancients did help the Vasudans, or at least it's strongly suggested in the FSRef Bible. If nothing else, we know the Ancients and Vasudans co-existed at some point(Khonsu II, Heir to the Dynasty of Ten Thousand Years), and the Vasudans are still here, so the Ancients aren't necessarily as bloodthirsty as they made themselves out to be.

You'd also think there'd be some note in their history if the Vasudans were one of the species 'subdued' by the Ancients. PeopleBeings may forget the good things done for them, but not likely the bad.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 02:33:58 pm by Timerlane »

 
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Quote from: General Battuta on March 11, 2010, 01:11:24 pm
No. Because the Ancients would have taken out the Terrans and Vasudans just as they did many other species.
Whatever their motives were, the Ancients did help the Vasudans, or at least it's strongly suggested in the FSRef Bible. If nothing else, we know the Ancients and Vasudans co-existed at some point(Khonsu II, Heir to the Dynasty of Ten Thousand Years), and the Vasudans are still here, so the Ancients aren't necessarily as bloodthirsty as they made themselves out to be.

You'd also think there'd be some note in their history if the Vasudans were one of the species 'subdued' by the Ancients. PeopleBeings may forget the good things done for them, but not likely the bad.
 

the ancient monologues state that whenever they met a civilization, they either subdued it or crushed it. most likely they saw the vasudans and the vasudans said, "hey, sup, wanna be friends?" and the ancients said, "sure, grab a brew and lets party!"

"i know that if not for the shivans, they would have perished long before. without the shivans, someone would have discovered them in their infancy, and eliminated them, just like they have eliminated countless others before. the shivans ae the great destroyers, but they are also the great destroyers. thats why when we moved into space, that's why there was noone powerdul enough to kill us. our turn had merely come."

unless... durring the T-V war, certain people (freemaosons/etc) fabricated the shivans so the gta and pvn could end the war neither wanted to fight anymore without looking weak
 

 

Offline General Battuta

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I'm well aware of all the stuff about Ancient/Vasudan interaction, but frankly knowing the Ancients it was probably more like 'disregard' or 'enslave' than 'assist'.

 

Offline Mongoose

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For all we know, the Vasudans weren't doing much more than hunting food with sharpened sticks at that time.  The Ancients presumably didn't even give them the time of day.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Quite.

 

Offline Timerlane

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http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ancients#Relationship_to_the_Vasudans
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The existence of a relationship between the Ancients and the Vasudans is based on compelling evidence, including what nearly amounts to a canon confirmation by Volition. The written language of the Ancients is similar to that of the Vasudans (FreeSpace Reference Bible cutscene "Act 3 Misc 2A"). The same cutscene refers to how "this lends credence to Vasudan legends about their ancestry".

http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ancients#FreeSpace_Reference_Bible_on_the_Ancients

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It is suspected that the Vasudans may have actually been visited long ago in their past by another race, simply called 'the Ancients'. Not much is known about this race, but from archaeological digs, it seems that they originated from a system nearby to Vasuda Prime. Since it is unlikely that Vasuda Prime could have sustained a primitive race for long enough to develop space travel, it is not unfeasible that 'the Ancients' may have helped Vasudan culture develop enough to allow them to survive.

 

Offline General Battuta

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It's an interesting theory but, again, knowing the Ancients probably falls under the 'enslave' category.

 

Offline Timerlane

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Of course, the other thought might be that since they were so close to the Ancients' home system(i.e. early in their empire building), perhaps the Ancients weren't quite so full of themselves at the time.

Maybe they helped them, then later ignored them, or perhaps it was a sort of semi-distant 'grandfathered' relationship; "Yeah, we crushed these other primitives, but those Vasudan guys are alright". Self-centric racism certainly doesn't have to be logically consistent.

  

Offline TrashMan

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No. Because the Ancients would have taken out the Terrans and Vasudans just as they did many other species.

Not if the Shivies bombed them back to stone age, but not to extinction.



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Yes we do: the Terrans and Vasudans. When they clearly could have.

No conclusive proof of that. We have no idea if the shiveis would have pushed further from Capella. You cannot say "they left us live" as if it's some sort of undenaible fact. It's not.

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In this theory, they continued to attack in FS1 because the way you prove your cooperative chops (once you've been xenocidal enough to draw the Shivans in the first place) is by knocking out the Lucifer. It's the only way out.

Then they're not nurturing cooperation, but nurturing pure survival.
It doesn't matter how much two species cooperate, if they don't have the technology necessary to defeat the shivans, they're dead.

Yeah, the shivans are utter bastards.
We might have fought a war with the vasudans, but at least we talked to them before we started shooting.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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That's what caused it in the first place. Silly dodgy Vasudan language which ironically helped decode some ancient eulogy.
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-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

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Here's a question: Is there evidence that the Shivans were even attacking during the second incursion? It seems silly, especially if you consider that the NTF opened the Knossoss. Is the NTF responsible for the Second Shivan Incursion?  Thats what I want to know.
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Offline Timerlane

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Quite possibly. Remember that the FS2 Shivans' first contact with humanity was with the NTC Trinity, not the GTC Vigilant.

Were we not talking about the 'seemingly Always Chaotic Evil/Omnicidal Manic' Shivans, we might be inclined to think that the sudden, 'unprovoked' attack by the original Rakshasa might have been because the NTC Trinity (possibly)attacked the Shivans first(out of surprise/panic at running into them), and without communicating, they have no way of telling NTF from Terran-GTVA.

Why would the Trinity attack? Both the Shivan-alliance concept and ETAK seem to have been top-secret and kept from most of the NTF. Furthermore, the NTC Trinity and Roemig had only defected "ten days ago" when the GTVA stumbled upon them. Roemig could have been a spy/informant prior to that, but still, it seems unlikely he'd be part of the upper echelon of the NTF. Odd that they'd pick such fresh recruits to power up the Knossos, though; perhaps it was because they were expendable?

The Shivans did try to set up a cruiser + containers supply depot by the Knossos, somewhat reminiscent of the fighter repair depot in 'Enter the Dragon', suggesting the Shivans were already planning ahead for an advance, though we can't know from that if they were planning to go beyond Capella.

The Ravana only made itself known by coming to the defense of the cruisers being attacked by the Actium and Lysander, and while it apparently mauled whatever capships we threw at it, it wasn't said to be headed for the node. We could explain that away as the Ravana being the command ship for the Shivans' Nebula battlegroup, and like the NTD Repulse, only to be committed to direct confrontation if absolutely necessary.

The first Sathanas generally only seemed interested in destroying things that got in its way, and the Tatenen which was (arguably) involved in the attack on a Shivan gas mining group. It then headed for the node rather than attack the GTVA destroyers in the Nebula, though that doesn't definitively say anything, either(deliberately ignoring them, or just leaving them, knowing another 80 Sathanes are en route?). It mauled the Phonecia, but that was a physical obstruction to where it was trying to go. In alternate briefings for High Noon(where there are still main beam cannons intact), the Sathanas also "obliterated the line of defense we had established to intercept it", upon reaching Capella. Sounds like they were directly in the way, as well. The second Sathanas seemed much the same.

After that, hard to say. The Colossus and mini-fleet's feint at the Capella-Gamma Draconis node drew a fairly mild response(IIRC, three cruisers and a few wings of fighters), until finally they sent the smallest thing they had that was capable of posing a threat to the Colossus: a Ravana. When that didn't convince the Colly to back off, they had to break a Sathanas off from "superjump" duty to finish things.

They then commenced "a massive attack at the Vega node", which was held off by "the majority of the [Allied] fleet". Cause and effect, or effect and cause? Were the remaining Shivans trying to push through into Vega, or was it a feint of their own? Alternately, was there a massive presence of Allied ships near the Capella-Vega node(knowing the Capella-Epsilon Pegasi node was about to be collapsed), leading the Shivans to believe they might be massing to pick up where the Colossus left off?

Interesting that no warships at all were sent to attack the Bastion at the Capella-Epsilon Pegasi node, only bombers.

 
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Interesting that no warships at all were sent to attack the Bastion at the Capella-Epsilon Pegasi node, only bombers.

lots of bombers... lots and lots and lots of bombers. more bombers you can wave a cyclops torpedo at

 

Offline Timerlane

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Honestly, I'm not sure what to think about that. Yes, there were an awful lot of bombers, but I'd think if the Shivans truly understood(and/or cared) about the fact that the GTVA was about to collapse a node to try to cut them off, they'd at least spare a Moloch or even 'just' a Lilith. ~flashes of BP 3.6.10 Forced Entry go here~

I suppose this might be where 'retail engine limitations' and 'ensuring a moderately skilled player can actually win the mission' come in...

 

Offline Kopachris

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Honestly, I'm not sure what to think about that. Yes, there were an awful lot of bombers, but I'd think if the Shivans truly understood(and/or cared) about the fact that the GTVA was about to collapse a node to try to cut them off, they'd at least spare a Moloch or even 'just' a Lilith. ~flashes of BP 3.6.10 Forced Entry go here~

I suppose this might be where 'retail engine limitations' and 'ensuring a moderately skilled player can actually win the mission' come in...
Maybe the Shivans wanted the node closed off so we couldn't bother them anymore.  That brings up another question though: does a supernova collapse all the nodes that were originally around that star?  Beyond Gamma Drac, anyway, all we found were Knossos portals (one to the nebula, and one from the nebula), but there could be more nodes elsewhere.
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Maybe the Shivans wanted the node closed off so we couldn't bother them anymore.

Shivan "Commander" :They blew up another one of our superships! we dont wanna play anymore, blow up that star!

 

Offline Kopachris

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Maybe the Shivans wanted the node closed off so we couldn't bother them anymore.

Shivan "Commander" :They blew up another one of our superships! we dont wanna play anymore, blow up that star!
I was thinking more along the lines of: "These annoying a**holes have bugged us for the last time.  Seal off the system!"

Of course, if they wanted to seal off a node so we couldn't bother them anymore, they could've sealed off Gamma Draconis from the nebula.  Perhaps a "higher" role is being fulfilled.  Kind of makes me think about Q putting humanity on trial...  Maybe the GTVA isn't mature enough to really explore the galaxy and the rest of the universe?  *shrug*
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Offline Mongoose

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Maybe the Shivans wanted the node closed off so we couldn't bother them anymore.  That brings up another question though: does a supernova collapse all the nodes that were originally around that star?  Beyond Gamma Drac, anyway, all we found were Knossos portals (one to the nebula, and one from the nebula), but there could be more nodes elsewhere.
There's no canon evidence stating that a star going supernova would automatically collapse all of the system's nodes.  A neutron star or black hole still retains a substantial amount of mass, so intrasystem jumps should still be possible within the system; one would think that that would be enough to maintain the original intersystem nodes as well.  I could definitely see the positions of those nodes shifting around somewhat, though.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Capella is unlikely to go either of those routes, as it's of insufficent mass. There's still no reason to believe that a white dwarf is insufficent, though.
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