Author Topic: Prop 8 for the lulz  (Read 12743 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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It's science. It's based on quantifiable field data. Observers went out there and did hand counts of offspring for years, for god's sake.

You can't 'not buy it'.

Also, for reference, since I doubt you clicked the link:

« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 10:04:03 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline The E

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TrashMan: Okay, then please provide scientific data to refute that claim. Saying "I don't buy that" is just about as valid as "I don't believe gravity exists". If you wish to argue with science, you need to use science. Otherwise your opinion will be ignored.
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Offline Bobboau

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It's science. It's based on quantifiable field data. Observers went out there and did hand counts of offspring for years, for god's sake.

You can't 'not buy it'.

this sounds interesting, what were the studies?
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Offline General Battuta

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See above (I edited in a big chart thing), and for the specific study I'm mentioning:

Mumme, R. L. 1992. Do helpers increase reproductive success? An experimental analysis in the Florida scrub jay. Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology 31:319–328.

That might not actually be complete, but it should be a good start.

You can also just go look at an ant colony; they work entirely on kin selection.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 10:10:58 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline Blue Lion

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I think this perfectly illustrates what's going on with this Prop 8.

It feels wrong to people and that's enough. There are no real facts to back up the claim, but they don't buy the other sides facts.

 

Offline iamzack

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Which is why we should laugh at their stupid "but it feeeeels wrooooong" nonsense until they shut up and go die.
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Offline Bobboau

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I don't think ants are a good example, they are asexual, not homosexual.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
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Offline General Battuta

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Ants are not asexual; they are, in fact, very sexual (and very determinedly either male or female), and it is sex that makes their societies work.

Ants are an example of kin selection in action. Kin selection is one of the mechanisms that makes homosexuality valuable. But you're correct that ants are not a direct example of homosex as a valuable social element.

Interestingly, by biological standards, humans are considered socially polygynous/promiscuous and reproductively promiscuous (as we're over the 10% threshold.) About 80% of human societies have been or are polygynous.

 

Offline Bobboau

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well, kin selection yeah, but the vast majority of the workers are basically sexually neutral.
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Offline General Battuta

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Yeah, pretty much - they're having sex by proxy, though, and they're definitely female, not asexual.

Ants show a lot of strange reproductive quirks. For example, male ants cannot have sons, but can have grandsons.

 

Offline Bobboau

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Yeah, pretty much - they're having sex by proxy, though, and they're definitely female, not asexual.

sex by proxy != sex, AFAIK the workers engage in no intercourse or courtship, the fact that they are acting as an extension of the queen, who does have sex, does not mean that they are having sex themselves.
they are female in so much as that is the biological default.
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Offline General Battuta

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Well, I think we're just quibbling over word choice here. They're definitely female. They just don't have any reason to have sex because they're more closely related to their sisters than to any potential offspring. They have sex by proxy through the queen because it's better than having sex themselves.

It's a function of haplodiploidy. Very weird stuff.

And I don't even know what point you're trying to argue here. The argument is not that ant colonies are full of lesbians. The argument is that they operate based on kin selection and eusociality, in the same way that homosexuality does.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 12:20:19 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Post edited, FYI.

 

Offline Bobboau

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my point was they were a poor analogy because they are not gay.

bonobo's are a much better analogy.
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Offline iamzack

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It's not a fair debate. One side has science and reason. The other side has religion and disdain for intellectualism. Poor Trashman.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Not to disagree, but I think almost all historical examples would probably be religious in nature simply due to the religiousness of the society at the time.


Right. If the Nazi Germany isn't enough (their ideology wasn't exactly religion-centric, although there were certainly aspects of personality cult in it and in that respect it was similar to many a religion), you could take a look at Stalin's Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Not talking about communists in general, just Stalin mainly. Communists actually legalized homosexuality (among other things like abortion and divorce without specific offense from either party) after the revolution when they re-wrote the legislation. Stalin expressly criminalized male homosexuality in 1933 with punishments up to five years in hard labour, and as a result you could say homosexuals were discriminated against just as much as they were in Germany.

At this point it may be a good idea to remember that Soviet Union was supposedly an atheist regime, as the communist party - especially Stalin - didn't exactly feel like sharing any of their authority with anyone, including religious authority figures, so they heavily discouraged and practically persecuted church. Despite this, various sources claim that about one third of the population still professed their religion, but I would damn well say it had nothing to do with the policies against homosexuals (and other minority groups like competent officers) in Stalin's purges and much more to do with Stalin's paranoia and madness that probably equalled that of his western colleague Adolf.

The basic idea?

Discrimination against minorities can be used as a tool of control by regimes that don't trouble their heads much with ethics. Doesn't matter what ism or ideology or religion is in the helm at that point, controlling the minorities is a very effective way to keep the majority silent, because if you speak against the government, you're obviously one of those decadent homosexuals and must be punished accordingly.

It's the same basic idea as with rethorics like "you're either with us or with the terrorists" (meaning if you disagree you have terrorist symphaties and should be suspected) and "think of the children" aka. if you disagree with what I'm saying, you are the enemy of children, enjoy ruining their psyche with emotional scars and you're also probably a pedophile.


Not saying it's as bad in the US as that, but there are definitely patterns reminiscent of history here. The main difference at the moment is that USA is not a dictatorship or ruled by one single authority (as much as Democrats and Republicans seem alike in their inefficient pandering around and between Capitol, White House and Wall Street), and the government doesn't control all three branches of power (legislative, executive and judiciary power). And there's really no interest for the government to forcefully control the people because frankly they are easily enough pacified without such crude maneuvers.

No, the Proposition 8 is much more likely simply a demonstration of some people's deep uncomfort against something that supposedly violates their belief system (sanctity of marriage as a church institution, specifically), but they miss the point that this is all about marriage as a state institution, and since state and church are separate it doesn't even make sense to bring the church or religious (or ideological in general) arguments anywhere near it, much less the courtroom.


Regarding TrashMan disregarding science he disagrees with, well, that topic has been handled before.

Sure, you can express your disbelief to some scientific study, but to be taken seriously in the context of science, you're supposed to point out why exactly do you think either the data or it's interpretations is wrong.

For example you can either deny that bonobos have homosexual relations with each other (I don't recommend it), or you can suggest that it doesn't benefit them as a species or group, in which case you should be able to show why it isn't, as opposed to the examples provided on why it in fact is beneficial to them as a group (you can read some of them in Battuta's post earlier).

Otherwise, be prepared to be disregarded just as you disregard the scientific research on the basis of... I don't even know what it is. :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 02:15:27 pm by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline General Battuta

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Trashman, get out of the thread unless you're going to read what's in it. You just wrote off a massive body of biological research as social science.

You're trying to say you're skeptical of it. But what you're skeptical of is genoprinting, offspring count, banded organism tracking, mate observation, and simple population statistics.

How can you be skeptical of direct physical observation? It's absurd. You can't find any way to criticize it so you're just bull****ting.

You couldn't explain to me what 'kin selection' is right now. You don't even understand that this is what we're talking about. You think we're talking about gay humans. I'm talking about Florida scrub jays and ants and how those explain how homosexuality in humans evolved. You didn't read closely enough to figure that out.

Staggering ignorance. You can expect to receive the level of respect in this scientific discussion that a Flat Earther would receive at an astronomical conference.

Moved all that junk to the split thread. Any more discussion here will be pruned.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 02:59:43 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline mxlm

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Which is why we should laugh at their stupid "but it feeeeels wrooooong" nonsense until they shut up and go die.

This is actually true. As I recall, the single most important factor for determining whether one will be opposed to teh evil buttsex marriage is age. When enough old people die, truth and justice and freedom and apple pie will prevail.
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Offline Galemp

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Godwinned. :D

I would really, really like to move away from the 'omg homos lol' aspect of this--drop biology, drop religion--and just talk about the SECULAR LEGAL implications of this trial.

Anyone agree?
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Offline Blue Lion

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Godwinned. :D

I would really, really like to move away from the 'omg homos lol' aspect of this--drop biology, drop religion--and just talk about the SECULAR LEGAL implications of this trial.

Anyone agree?

That's sorta the point. They had no real secular reason for it. That's why these guys are floundering on the stand. When asked why it should be banned, all they have is "ew gays"