[Goober5000]

There's nothing preventing the GT and GV designation from being instituted in 2345, so Templar could have taken place then.  In fact I think it says somewhere that Templar was the first joint fleet action undertaken by the newly formed GTVA.

[Snail]

There's nothing preventing the GT and GV designation from being instituted in 2345, so Templar could have taken place then.  In fact I think it says somewhere that Templar was the first joint fleet action undertaken by the newly formed GTVA.

It's stated that this designation exists "under BETAC." BETAC was drafted in 2358. It sort of implies that this convention only started after BETAC.

But given the ambiguity of the intel database it could easily go either way...

[headdie]

There's nothing preventing the GT and GV designation from being instituted in 2345, so Templar could have taken place then.  In fact I think it says somewhere that Templar was the first joint fleet action undertaken by the newly formed GTVA.

It's stated that this designation exists "under BETAC." BETAC was drafted in 2358. It sort of implies that this convention only started after BETAC.

But given the ambiguity of the intel database it could easily go either way...

my point is there is nothing said or written to prevent GV being used pre BETAC.   BETAC only states that within the GTVA GV will be used to designate Vasudan element.

 tbh if Goober5000 is right then this is a mute point as the reference places the operation post BETAC

[Mongoose]

I think it's more useful to step out-of-universe and treat it as an oversight by whoever at was FREDding those missions.  It's highly unlikely that the Hammer of Light would remain relevant so long after the Great War.

[Klaustrophobia]

i was always under the impression templar was pretty much immediately after the destruction of the lucifer.  certainly no more than a year later.  from what i remeber, one of the briefings mentioned the mop-up of remaining shivans like it was still taking place.

[MatthTheGeek]

But remember also that IIRC Templar took place after ST. Well, not 100% sure about that one, but I think there are some HoL to fight in ST.

[Klaustrophobia]

there was still a significant shivan presence in ST, so that doesn't really push templar back any.  is it even definitely established that ST happens AFTER the lucifer?  at least the start of it anyway. 

[Timerlane]

Mentioned in a Command Brief just before the first mission. The HoL is also mentioned in the same Command Brief.

EDIT: The HoL also seize the Giordano(Secret Recovery), and there's a semi-humorous failure debrief for Field of Destruction suggesting that the HoL are naming a cruiser after you.

[Snail]

i was always under the impression templar was pretty much immediately after the destruction of the lucifer.  certainly no more than a year later.  from what i remeber, one of the briefings mentioned the mop-up of remaining shivans like it was still taking place.

That's an impossibility. The Templar campaign specifically mentions the existence of the GTVA more than once, so it couldn't have taken place before 2345 (there could even be an argument that it couldn't take place before 2358).

there was still a significant shivan presence in ST, so that doesn't really push templar back any.  is it even definitely established that ST happens AFTER the lucifer?  at least the start of it anyway.  

Yes, it is explicitly stated that ST happens after the Lucifer's destruction. Several times.

[Gamma_Draconis]

Considering that the Operation Templar felt more like a counter-terrorism operation than an actual military operation, I would be fine with the HoL existing solely as an extremist/terrorist organization.

[headdie]

i think this sums up nicely, it is as writen for the HoL techroom intel

Following the destruction of the SD Lucifer, the ideology and activities of the HoL shifted. While some followers committed ritual suicide, the military branch of the movement continued their armed opposition to the Vasudan government and its alliance with the Terrans. Though they continued to espouse HoL's religious dogma, their activities turned more toward acts of terrorism and guerrilla warfare. This branch of the HoL was later crushed in Operation Templar, following the HoL's kidnapping of the Vasudan admiralty. Other HoL leaders vanished into obscurity, returning to the study of arcane texts. A number of these religious leaders were apprehended and imprisoned for their role in the insurgency, though a few are still hiding.

[Kie99]

There's nothing preventing the GT and GV designation from being instituted in 2345, so Templar could have taken place then.  In fact I think it says somewhere that Templar was the first joint fleet action undertaken by the newly formed GTVA.

It's stated that this designation exists "under BETAC." BETAC was drafted in 2358. It sort of implies that this convention only started after BETAC.

But given the ambiguity of the intel database it could easily go either way...

Alternatively GVD could have been a convention (with a small 'c') only enshrined in law when BETAC was agreed.

[Goober5000]

It's stated that this designation exists "under BETAC." BETAC was drafted in 2358. It sort of implies that this convention only started after BETAC.

Not necessarily.  You could say, "Under the United States Constitution, X is true" and that doesn't prevent X from also being true under the Articles of Confederation.

tbh if Goober5000 is right then this is a mute point as the reference places the operation post BETAC

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.  2345 is clearly earlier than 2358.

Alternatively GVD could have been a convention (with a small 'c') only enshrined in law when BETAC was agreed.

Another good point I hadn't considered.

[NGTM-1R]

It's highly unlikely that the Hammer of Light would remain relevant so long after the Great War.

Back up. They had their hands on the only major Vasudan shipyards (Altair) that we know of. As much as we remember them as terrorists, by at least Mid-FS1 they were not a terrorist group anymore; they were a major armed rebellion capable of engaging the GTA and PVN in a conventional military campaign.

Templar is their last gasp, but unseating them would have required major military commitment and possibly a years-long campaign like what the GTVA was looking at to grind down the NTF in FS2.

This would also helpfully explain why the GTVA is so acutely aware they have to beat the NTF soon after 18 months or they'll have to give up; they already went through this song and dance once before with the Hammer of Light and people remember that it was long, costly, and ultimately badly detrimental to their main task of being prepared for another go at Shivan-induced apocalypse.

[SF-Junky]

50 destroyers is just ridiculously huge.

Absolutely not. I'll never understand where that minimalism which some scifi fans tend to have, comes from. There are 13 Vasudan Battle Groups. Considered that there's an equal number of Terran Fleets, that's 26 Fleets/BGs overall. If each of them has only two destroyers, we already have 52 alltogether.

That's an impossibility. The Templar campaign specifically mentions the existence of the GTVA more than once, so it couldn't have taken place before 2345 (there could even be an argument that it couldn't take place before 2358).

Couldn't it be that GTVA was used as some sort of inofficial designation? I remember the Galactic Terran-Vasudan Alliance being mentioned in one of FS1's last debriefs. I think it was the mission in which you destroy the Anvil.

[MatthTheGeek]

I'll never understand where that minimalism which some scifi fans tend to have, comes from.

Probably from realism. Retarded number of destroyer is retarded. For me, destroyers are not ships that you can build wherever you want in a few months. They would take at least 4 years to complete, and there are probably not more than 3-4 shipyards under GTVA control able to build these behemoths. Destroyers are also very expensive. My opinion is that there where probably less than half a dozen desties in each faction during the GW, and definitely not more than a dozen (in each faction, so think a dozen for NTF, a dozen for Vasudans and a dozen for Terrans) during FS2. If the GTVA was able to build 50 destroyers, firstly they would have committed a lot more at Capella, and secondly they would have had the resources to build 3 or 4 more Colossi too.

[BengalTiger]

I'll never understand where that minimalism which some scifi fans tend to have, comes from.

Probably from realism. Retarded number of destroyer is retarded. For me, destroyers are not ships that you can build wherever you want in a few months. They would take at least 4 years to complete, and there are probably not more than 3-4 shipyards under GTVA control able to build these behemoths. Destroyers are also very expensive. My opinion is that there where probably less than half a dozen desties in each faction during the GW, and definitely not more than a dozen (in each faction, so think a dozen for NTF, a dozen for Vasudans and a dozen for Terrans) during FS2. If the GTVA was able to build 50 destroyers, firstly they would have committed a lot more at Capella, and secondly they would have had the resources to build 3 or 4 more Colossi too.

With 4 shipyards, and each making a ship in 4 years, you get 1 D per year. There were 30 years of reconstruction, so that gives 30 new destroyers.
The Big 'C' was probably such a slow project because the conventional warships took up a large part of the budget, leaving too little cash to get the big 'C' done quick (and the GTB Boa also gives a hint the GTVA was working on a limited budget).

Also take note that there are 18 named GTVA destroyers, plus 10 more in the NTF) in FS 2, which would mean that about a 1/2 of all destroyers were in or near the action in the rather small part of the GTVA the player visited, if the estimate of +/-50 is correct.

[headdie]

I'll never understand where that minimalism which some scifi fans tend to have, comes from.

Probably from realism. Retarded number of destroyer is retarded. For me, destroyers are not ships that you can build wherever you want in a few months. They would take at least 4 years to complete, and there are probably not more than 3-4 shipyards under GTVA control able to build these behemoths. Destroyers are also very expensive. My opinion is that there where probably less than half a dozen desties in each faction during the GW, and definitely not more than a dozen (in each faction, so think a dozen for NTF, a dozen for Vasudans and a dozen for Terrans) during FS2. If the GTVA was able to build 50 destroyers, firstly they would have committed a lot more at Capella, and secondly they would have had the resources to build 3 or 4 more Colossi too.

With 4 shipyards, and each making a ship in 4 years, you get 1 D per year. There were 30 years of reconstruction, so that gives 30 new destroyers.
The Big 'C' was probably such a slow project because the conventional warships took up a large part of the budget, leaving too little cash to get the big 'C' done quick (and the GTB Boa also gives a hint the GTVA was working on a limited budget).

Also take note that there are 18 named GTVA destroyers, plus 10 more in the NTF) in FS 2, which would mean that about a 1/2 of all destroyers were in or near the action in the rather small part of the GTVA the player visited, if the estimate of +/-50 is correct.

you also have the fact that just because the alliance has new destroyers dosnt mean they instantly retire the old ones, just look at the number of orions encountered and its canon that around the time of the second encounter that T-V war era destroyers are still around (bastion which was the players base ship at the end of the first game was only just being retired for the start of FS2).

as for construction times all the infrastructure was in place to build the big destroyers it just needed retooling for the new ships, the colly was probably bigger than the capability of any shipyard at the time of its inception so you need to build the construction facility's before you can start on the ship

to be honest the biggest problem with large destroyer fleets is maintenance 3000 meters of ship + combat craft + 10000 crew is going to be expensive even to the gtva and will work out like an aircraft carrier so i think to say 2-3 destroyers per fleet would be about right.  You can see why there needs to be more than a handful when you consider the importance of destroyers in providing mission flexibility to the fleet and the number of missions a destroyer can be apart of simultaneously through its fighter complement, lets face it 8 fighters can easily cripple/destroy a cruiser making them at least as valuable in combat (though cruisers can stay in the field for days on end where as a fighter needs to land so the pilot can eat/sleep/go pee)

[Spoon]

Absolutely not. I'll never understand where that minimalism which some scifi fans tend to have, comes from. There are 13 Vasudan Battle Groups. Considered that there's an equal number of Terran Fleets, that's 26 Fleets/BGs overall. If each of them has only two destroyers, we already have 52 alltogether.

I wholeheartly agree
Just look at the huge number of ships the UK had during WWII. That was just 1 country (!)
Then look at how large a number of ships the US started producing when it entered the war.

Now imagine several PLANETS being able to provide resources, manpower and industry.

 

[headdie]

Have you taken scale into account, a nimitz aircraft carrier is about the size of a fenris so yes you have planets involved but you also have ships longer than the range of most non strategic weapons today