[The E]

Ah damnit, guess motivation isn't just everything. What ever happened to mah originality and inspiration? 

Anyone find that's the hardest part of making a campaign? Try to be original in as many ways as possible?

Trying to be as original as you can be for your first release is probably not a good idea. You run the risk of having too many ideas you're trying to pull off at once, where it might be a better way to concentrate on one or two features you know you can pull off well.
A solidly done minicampaign or mission that showcases some new feature will, I think, get more and better feedback than a mission or campaign that tries to cram in a dozen of them.

If you're still trying to create new content for your campaign with all the crap we have lying around, you're an idiot.

I take it he was more talking about new gameplay ideas. Those are always a good thing to have.

[starwolf1991]

If you're still trying to create new content for your campaign with all the crap we have lying around, you're an idiot.

Lol who you directing that at? If me, I'm not referring to Cerberus

[NGTM-1R]

I take it he was more talking about new gameplay ideas. Those are always a good thing to have.

At this point, I doubt it. It is entirely possible to create and execute a good story with the toolset, ideas, and assets that came with Retail; retail itself did so. Yet the fandom is littered with the unmarked graves of projects and developers who rejected this idea and consequently never got anywhere, and the monuments of projects that have all kinds of content locked up and going nowhere for the very same reason.

Even extending only to the least-opaque improvements the SCP has made to the FREDding tools and off-the-shelf models, tables, and effects, and what the collective brainpower of the community has already proposed and is possible without serious scripting, we have more freedom than just about any other modding community. Yes, there are things that we don't have that I particularly would like, but they're hardly critical to any campaign I would build. At this point I don't think I or anyone else has room to complain their options are limited and they absolutely must have new features or new models or new effects or do something really new and different. It might make their lives easier, but they don't actually need it. They could write around it, or write another, equally good, story with the tools at hand. They just don't want to.

[karajorma]

If you're still trying to create new content for your campaign with all the crap we have lying around, you're an idiot.

I wouldn't go that far. I would however say that it probably applies if you're trying to make a new campaign using only retail/upgrade models and a lot of models you made yourself.

Making an entire mod single-handed is such a large task that as far as I know, no one has ever done it yet.

[Spoon]

Making an entire mod single-handed is such a large task that as far as I know, no one has ever done it yet.

*Raises hand*

[Goober5000]

Single missions tend to get ignored actually. I've seen quite a few cases of that happening on this very board.

I have noticed this too, and it's unfortunate. I remember standalone missions were given a lot more attention at one point, back in the days of the VBB and Xanadu's archive, but today there are enough good campaigns being released that they tend to crowd out any standalone missions.

I have noticed this too... but I've also noticed standalone missions that get a lot of feedback.  It probably depends on the thread.  If you make such a thread, it wouldn't hurt to give a big tantalizing description in the first post so that people will want to play it.

It would also help if we had a good single-mission repository, like the old Volition Watch Archive.  FSMods might qualify, but I don't know that people actually search for missions using it.

Even extending only to the least-opaque improvements the SCP has made to the FREDding tools and off-the-shelf models, tables, and effects, and what the collective brainpower of the community has already proposed and is possible without serious scripting, we have more freedom than just about any other modding community. Yes, there are things that we don't have that I particularly would like, but they're hardly critical to any campaign I would build. At this point I don't think I or anyone else has room to complain their options are limited and they absolutely must have new features or new models or new effects or do something really new and different. It might make their lives easier, but they don't actually need it. They could write around it, or write another, equally good, story with the tools at hand. They just don't want to.

I would definitely agree with this.  To quote Derelict, "it is a poor space jockey that blames their lack of skill on their equipment."  I've made both retail-compatible and FSO-only campaigns, so I know it's possible.

Making an entire mod single-handed is such a large task that as far as I know, no one has ever done it yet.

Mmmm... Blaise Russel, with Sol: A History?  Grunt, with The Centaur Project?

[asyikarea51]

*Stumbles across thread*

Stuck in the same campaign rut too, I lost count, and now I'm out of free time. I have no idea how many times I created a new folder and put files in it only for it to be obsolete because I created a new folder and put files in it. =\

Where files refer to well, data files of any mod, missions, effects, maps, models etc...

Even if I did learn anything from all those failures I still think I didn't get far beyond the ship and weapon tables and singular testing of added things... =\

[karajorma]

Mmmm... Blaise Russel, with Sol: A History?  Grunt, with The Centaur Project?

SoL : A History used Inferno ships so it hardly counts as single-handed modding. Centaur Project has 3 members according to their website.


@Spoon. What did you do? Bear in mind that by mod I mean it in the context I was using when replying to NGTM-1R where someone decides to make a campaign with quite a few ships they'll make themselves.

[TopAce]

How many is "a lot"?

I released Renegade Resurgence with 3 new models plus some new missiles. I suppose that doesn't make "a lot".

[karajorma]

Not to put down your work TopAce but the quality of your RR mods was the worst thing in that campaign.

That does highlight another problem that exists in this community, Jack of all trades syndrome. Where newbie members think that they can mod, table and FRED an entire campaign themselves and still have it be the same quality as one done by a team.

While we do have some individuals who are talented enough to do all that, it takes a lot of time to learn all those skills and put them into practice. While I'd never want to discourage someone from trying a little of everything so that they can find their niche, it's not a good idea to plan to make an entire campaign full of kick-arse ships when you've only just started learning Blender.

[TopAce]

Not to put down your work TopAce but the quality of your RR mods was the worst thing in that campaign.

I'm aware of that. Well, I *was* a noob then, so I fell into this trap.

[Iss Mneur]

It would also help if we had a good single-mission repository, like the old Volition Watch Archive.  FSMods might qualify, but I don't know that people actually search for missions using it.

I was thinking the same thing.  wxLauncher 2.0 (see signature) could provide that type of repository to ease installation and what not. But it really depends on the answer to the question that I posed to General Battuta:

Thats too bad.  And is something that I don't really understand the thought process behind.  Is it that installing a single mission is just too much work for the less than an hour of entertainment (cringing)? Or what?

Note I am not trying to call Battuta out on this, but actually anyone that doesn't play the single missions.  So I ask anyone that doesn't play single missions, why?

Because if it is the effort of installing the mission that is something that can be fixed with more technology. But it if is just a general lack of interest in playing the mission to start with, obviously, no amount of technology can make someone play a mission.

[Spoon]

@Spoon. What did you do? Bear in mind that by mod I mean it in the context I was using when replying to NGTM-1R where someone decides to make a campaign with quite a few ships they'll make themselves.

Yeah
I pretty much did exactly what you are trying to discourage, in one year time. Learning all the skills and making a close to total conversion single handedly.

[TopAce]

FreeSpaceMods is just as good as a repository as a new, dedicated single-mission repository would be. It's not a matter of not having a place for single missions, it's the apparent lack of interest, the cause of which I'd be interested to see unveiled and explained. I'm thinking along the lines of storytelling. People, in my observation, are willing to listen to complete stories told in a full campaign.

Or perhaps there is not much to say about one and only one mission, provided it's well made enough not to draw harsh criticism. I released once an "Escort a Deimos to a node" single mission, for which people submitted feedback such as "it's a standard escort mission" or "Good job!"

[Goober5000]

SoL : A History used Inferno ships so it hardly counts as single-handed modding. Centaur Project has 3 members according to their website.

All right then, what about Seeds of Rebellion and The Mercury Affair?  Are you conceding defeat on those?

Note I am not trying to call Battuta out on this, but actually anyone that doesn't play the single missions.  So I ask anyone that doesn't play single missions, why?

Because if it is the effort of installing the mission that is something that can be fixed with more technology. But it if is just a general lack of interest in playing the mission to start with, obviously, no amount of technology can make someone play a mission.

Speaking just for myself, I've played almost every mission on the Archives that was reviewed with three stars or higher, and a few that were rated lower but looked interesting.  I've also played several missions that weren't reviewed at all, but had interesting descriptions.

So maybe we need a good review system, in addition to the ability to easily browse a repository of missions.

I pretty much did exactly what you are trying to discourage, in one year time. Learning all the skills and making a close to total conversion single handedly.

Wow.  I never heard of that.  It needs more publicity.  Make a wiki page for it, and then feature it.

[Droid803]

I pretty much did exactly what you are trying to discourage, in one year time. Learning all the skills and making a close to total conversion single handedly.

That's actually what I would encourage.
I mean, if you want to get something done, you gotta do it yourself :/ (or use stuff that's already been done for you, which isn't really an option if you're doing a near-TC).
Unless you have excellent chemistry between members of your team, and everyone's completely devoted to the project, something's going to drag it down.

[General Battuta]

I pretty much did exactly what you are trying to discourage, in one year time. Learning all the skills and making a close to total conversion single handedly.

That's actually what I would encourage.
I mean, if you want to get something done, you gotta do it yourself :/ (or use stuff that's already been done for you).
Unless you have excellent chemistry between members of your team, and everyone's completely devoted to the project, something's going to drag it down.

If you're working with adults I don't think this is as much of a problem.

Then again, IPAndrews!

[karajorma]

@Spoon. What did you do? Bear in mind that by mod I mean it in the context I was using when replying to NGTM-1R where someone decides to make a campaign with quite a few ships they'll make themselves.

Yeah
I pretty much did exactly what you are trying to discourage, in one year time. Learning all the skills and making a close to total conversion single handedly.

You really ought to get that mod on the Wiki cause I did look on here for your username and found nothing.

Not to take anything away from your achievement but you did make low poly ships. Personally I think that's a good idea as it means that you can actually get done in a reasonable time frame but most people are not willing to make that concession and would go straight to high-poly for their mod.

Still, your success story aside, do you agree that in general it's a bad idea to try to make a total conversion single-handed from the outset? The point I'm trying to make here isn't that you shouldn't try, but that you should start out small and see if you have the skills and dedication to do it first before you start on a 20 mission campaign featuring 30 new ship classes.

All right then, what about Seeds of Rebellion and The Mercury Affair?  Are you conceding defeat on those?

Given that neither are released after 9 years in the community I doubt I could make the point that it was a good idea to start that way. Furthermore neither campaign is a particularly big mod. TMA only featured one new ship and SoR featured one new ship and one new weapon.

[Mongoose]

FreeSpaceMods is just as good as a repository as a new, dedicated single-mission repository would be. It's not a matter of not having a place for single missions, it's the apparent lack of interest, the cause of which I'd be interested to see unveiled and explained. I'm thinking along the lines of storytelling. People, in my observation, are willing to listen to complete stories told in a full campaign.

Or perhaps there is not much to say about one and only one mission, provided it's well made enough not to draw harsh criticism. I released once an "Escort a Deimos to a node" single mission, for which people submitted feedback such as "it's a standard escort mission" or "Good job!"

I think the first point in particular is very true, or at least it is for me.  When I take the time to sit down and play FS2, I'm generally in the mood to work my way through a story, which individual stand-alone missions obviously can't really do.  With a few rare exceptions, the vast majority of released missions fall into a few basic archetypes, so full-fledged campaigns have the advantage in that they provide a framework to make those same escort/assault missions seem more compelling.  That isn't to say that an individual mission couldn't do something really awesome in its own right, but I think it's easier to do so in the context of an overall storyline.

I'll also agree with you on the second point, that it's hard to give large amounts of feedback on a relatively-straightforward mission.  I've been toying around with the idea of trying to put together a simple escort mission, just to see if I can't wrap my head around how FRED works, but I'd imagine that most people wouldn't be all that interested in playing something that's been done so many times before.

[Spoon]

Still, your success story aside, do you agree that in general it's a bad idea to try to make a total conversion single-handed from the outset? The point I'm trying to make here isn't that you shouldn't try, but that you should start out small and see if you have the skills and dedication to do it first before you start on a 20 mission campaign featuring 30 new ship classes.

In general that is probably the best way to go about it yeah.
In my case I spend a lot of time reading the wiki, searching the forum and if that failed, post a thread or ask in irc. (Being a NEET with a lot of free time also helps).

Not to take anything away from your achievement but you did make low poly ships. Personally I think that's a good idea as it means that you can actually get done in a reasonable time frame but most people are not willing to make that concession and would go straight to high-poly for their mod.

I decided from the get go that I was not going to be trapped in the high poly swamp. Good for me I guess, since I actually got something done this way 


Before embarking on a large project, ask yourself: "Will I have actual time to work on it and complete it?" and "How am I going to keep myself motivated?"
Your answers should help you determine if you feel like you can start big or if you are better off starting small (In my personal case I could answer the first one with a yes and the second one with "Weeee, playing around with my own ingame models is fun. Ooooh, what if I make a BoE and just look at it? Weeee weapon effects. Oh, normal maps? Lessee, how do I make these? Ooooh, that makes things look awesome in game!"  )