[Kosh]

Still up to their same old tricks: duck and cover

Pope Benedict has joined mounting Vatican criticism of raids by Belgian police investigating alleged child sex abuse, calling them "deplorable".

In a message to Belgian bishops, the pope expressed solidarity "in this moment of sadness".

Several buildings were searched in raids targeting a retired archbishop and the graves of two prelates.

Belgium's justice minister has responded to the criticism robustly.

Stefaan De Clerck defended the police action, in a series of TV interviews on Sunday, saying the investigation is legitimate and normal procedures were followed.

"The bishops were treated completely normally during the raid on the archdiocese and it is false to say that they received no food or drink," he said.

I wonder how many people will get a clue and quit the church.....

[FreeSpaceFreak]

I've heard that they even searched the tombs

[Liberator]

See, the whole issue could and would be put away if the Church would do the MORAL AND ETHICAL thing and turn these degenerates over to authorities and strip them of their status ASAP after discovery.  Send a message that this behavior is unacceptable.

[Mongoose]

See, the whole issue could and would be put away if the Church would do the MORAL AND ETHICAL thing and turn these degenerates over to authorities and strip them of their status ASAP after discovery.  Send a message that this behavior is unacceptable.

Um...the Church does do that, and has for a long time now.

And Koth, regardless of the very real issue of child abuse over the past several decades, you don't find something a wee bit excessive about detaining bishops for nine hours straight and digging up old graves?

[mxlm]

Wait, detaining people for nine hours is excessive?

And I'm sure the Belgian police have nothing better to do than grave rob. They were probably just amusing themselves.

[Mobius]

See, the whole issue could and would be put away if the Church would do the MORAL AND ETHICAL thing and turn these degenerates over to authorities and strip them of their status ASAP after discovery.  Send a message that this behavior is unacceptable.

Um...the Church does do that, and has for a long time now.

No, it doesn't. Vatican is a safe place for priests and bishops who are responsible for child sex abuse, and nothing has been done to get all those criminals out of there.


On a side note, I'm using another computer with a prehistoric keybord which prevents me from posting in lightblue.

[karajorma]

And Koth, regardless of the very real issue of child abuse over the past several decades, you don't find something a wee bit excessive about detaining bishops for nine hours straight and digging up old graves?

Not in the slightest. It's exactly what would have been done if they weren't bishops. Should we make a special exception for priests? Cause funnily enough that's what the Vatican seems to want.

[Mongoose]

Wait, detaining people for nine hours is excessive?

Depending on the circumstances, yes.  Why did they need to be detained in the first place just to conduct a search?  At least over here, if you get a warrant served on your property, you're not exactly thrown in a holding cell until the search is complete.

No, it doesn't. Vatican is a safe place for priests and bishops who are responsible for child sex abuse, and nothing has been done to get all those criminals out of there.

Again, no.  The Vatican has made it very clear over the past several years that cases of suspected child abuse are to be handled by the proper civil authorities, and those priests who are convicted of it are certainly defrocked.  Obviously, this policy wasn't in place a few decades ago, which has led to the flood of allegations over the past few years, but it's definitely the case now.

And Koth, regardless of the very real issue of child abuse over the past several decades, you don't find something a wee bit excessive about detaining bishops for nine hours straight and digging up old graves?

Not in the slightest. It's exactly what would have been done if they weren't bishops. Should we make a special exception for priests? Cause funnily enough that's what the Vatican seems to want.

So was there solid evidence that these "documents" the police were looking for in these gravesites even existed in the first place?  Or was it simply a power-happy police commissioner looking to make a name for himself?

[mxlm]

Well, why don't you go research the Belgian standards for probable cause and such and get back to us

[Kosh]

And Koth, regardless of the very real issue of child abuse over the past several decades, you don't find something a wee bit excessive about detaining bishops for nine hours straight and digging up old graves?

I'm not Koth.


Detaining them for 9 hours straight is excessive? Not in a situation like this. Hopefully this raid will show them once and for all that they cannot continue trying to cover up these problems. I think it's really just a show of force, to remind them that they have to answer for their earthly sins.

[karajorma]

Kosh, stop trying to act like Judge Dread. Whatever crime these people may have committed they are currently considered innocent. It's reprehensible conduct for the police to decide that they are guilty and attempt to punish them this far in advance of a trial.

If they were detained it must be the same way anyone else would be. No more, no less.

So was there solid evidence that these "documents" the police were looking for in these gravesites even existed in the first place?  Or was it simply a power-happy police commissioner looking to make a name for himself?

I'm unaware of why the graves were searched in the first place but any policeman digging up graves for no reason is definitely causing trouble he doesn't want to have. So I suspect that there was a good reason. Especially as you usually have to convince a judge in order to get an exhumation.


So instead of taking the position that this was some crazy abuse of power without any reason to think that let's allow those involved to do their jobs.

[Kosh]

Kosh, stop trying to act like Judge Dread. Whatever crime these people may have committed they are currently considered innocent. It's reprehensible conduct for the police to decide that they are guilty and attempt to punish them this far in advance of a trial.

If they were detained it must be the same way anyone else would be. No more, no less.

But in trying so hard to hide it they've tried to circumvent the legal system. That's the real problem with what they did, they believed they were above the law as an organization.

[BlueFlames]

The Vatican has made it very clear over the past several years that cases of suspected child abuse are to be handled by the proper civil authorities, and those priests who are convicted of it are certainly defrocked.

And herein lies a problem with the Vatican's sovereignty:  Would an accused member of the clergy be deported from the Vatican's borders to face trial by those proper civil authorities?  You cannot have a conviction without a trial; you cannot have a trial without the accused on-hand to face his accuser, and you cannot have the accused on-hand, if he's tucked away in a state ruled by an individual/group with a vested interest in keeping the whole affair quiet.  It's all so much wonderful lip-service paid to justice, while maintaining a safe haven for the people who least need it.

[Mongoose]

I can't say I've heard of a single case of a priest residing in the Vatican itself being accused of child molestation, though one certainly could exist.  Even so, the vast majority of cases in question involve citizens of their countries of residence, so deportation is never an issue in the first place.

[iamzack]

They don't bring the priests back to the Vatican, they send them to out-of-the way churches where they don't think anyone will report the abuse.

[Mongoose]

Yes, we know what happened back then.  A lot of people made a lot of indefensible decisions, and a lot of innocent children suffered as a result.  I was responding to BlueFlames' point, which isn't really what the issue is about.

[iamzack]

Women and children are worthless in the eyes of most mainstream religions. Hence anti-abortion, pro-molestation organizations like the the catholic church, or most predominantly muslim states.

[Qent]

I haven't found anything official about the Catholic teaching on indirect abortion at this time, but from what I've seen so far, you're always permitted to save the mother's life. After that consideration you can try to save the baby's life. I'd assume that by symmetry the same goes for the baby.

[Grizzly]

On a side note, the belgium police also happened to seize the dossiers of a dutch investigation which was running on the subject and now faces some serious problems.

Sigh.

[Nuke]

threads like this usually follow the same format and theres really no point discussing anything so il just add my usual 2 cents...

NUKE THE VATICAN!!!!