[Flipside]

Flipside, a human always knows where his limbs are and what they are doing, so why would that be different if he was wearing power armor?  With proper training I'm sure a human could adjust to the enhanced strength, and yes, even pick up an egg (very, very carefully of course).  The most important part is making sure the operator knows what forces are being transmitted to him, so the cerebellum can subconsciously compensate.

Certainly, with training, but the kind of training needed would be for a combat machine that is slow, overtly complex and likely to be a liability to its operator. I can certainly as Starslayer says, see something like this being used for carrying supplies etc, and the light exo-suit enhancement shown in the first post is probably one of the better applications, but actual power-armor would, I suspect, be far more of a hindrance in anything but pre-secured areas. More vulnerable to rocket-attack, slower, more epensive and not really bringing anything 'new' to the theatre. As combat machines, Power Armour looks good, I love Warhammer 40K (and their 'physically and mentally bonded to the armour' Marines are actually more believable), but as an actual combat device, rather than support, I don't really see them being an advantage-bringer.

[Turambar]

if you can put 100lbs of equipment on one of those things, you can also put a ton of armor and a huge gun on it. 

[Titan]

Flipside, a human always knows where his limbs are and what they are doing, so why would that be different if he was wearing power armor?  With proper training I'm sure a human could adjust to the enhanced strength, and yes, even pick up an egg (very, very carefully of course).  The most important part is making sure the operator knows what forces are being transmitted to him, so the cerebellum can subconsciously compensate.

Eggs are actually pretty freaking strong. Go ahead. Clasp the entire thing in your hand, so the pressure's even. It's physically impossible to break it.

We need to somehow combine the power armor concept with eggs.

[Flipside]

Every pound of weight you add reduces motor-response time and increases demand on power, it could be done, but what would be the point? Other than the shock and awe factor, they really don't bring anything worthwhile to the battlefield, one marine with a shoulder-mounted RPG could be just as dangerous, be far less vulnerable in urban landscapes, more stealthy and capable of working from cover, an augmentation suit might allow that Marine to do their job more effectively, but power-armour would really be an expensive liability, you can stick a small-barreled artillery unit on the back of a jeep and get an equal quality of combat-effectiveness for a tiny fraction of the price, with the added bonus of the fact the occupants can run like hell if it all goes tits-up.

[Titan]

heehee. tits.

*ahem*

Yeah, but how cool would it be if we could replicate the last scene of iron man 2.

[SpardaSon21]

Flipside, I'm not sure how big the power armor you're talking about is.  I'm talking about a suit of armor that is man-sized, not something massive like it seems you're implying.  Fighting in an urban environment and using cover should be easy for something a little larger than the size of your average human, and broken terrain with lots of obstacles should be less of an issue for something like that than a wheeled jeep.

[Flipside]

I referring more to the kind of 'strap lots of armour and a big gun to it' kind of power armour, I'd consider, for example, the kind of power-armour in Crysis to be a glorified 'augmentation suit', with a chunk of science-fiction thrown in. I think suits like that could be used for increased physical strength, or with stealth devices attached (though increased speed is another matter, you'd certainly need to at least be mentally 'bonded' to the machine in some way for that to work), but as a 'stand up and fight' device, I just don't see them being any more effective than other, cheaper alternatives.

[Colonol Dekker]

true but how long is it going to be between getting thing battle viable and someone starts strapping Kevlar  and steel/titanium plates to it

The logical application is EOD, and the logical reason to add armor is to make it fragmention proof. After that it'll probably go to combat engineering, then eventually line infantry.

 
 
As a qualified EOD combat engineer I can see the benefits in certain scenarios. But it would NOT be beneficial for the most common EOD tasks or IED clearance.
 
Not at all.
 
 
 
By the way, this is quite coincidental to what I got up to earlier

[NGTM-1R]

Every pound of weight you add reduces motor-response time and increases demand on power, it could be done, but what would be the point?

Mainly, fragmentation-proofing and small-arms proofing would vastly increase the lifespan of a soldier under fire. If you can increase a single soldier's resistence to enemy fire such that it takes at least 12.7mm to hurt him and render him grenade/mortar proof, this is a major step forward.

He doesn't have to carry anything more than a normal soldier, and at that point you might well be able to get away with less. The armor doesn't have to be performance-enhancing; it merely has to be performance-neutral, canceling out its own increased weight and keeping gross speed and reaction times similar despite increased weight.

But it's the fragmentation-proof that will really change the battlefield. Fragmentation weapons are the reason why infantry is no longer the arm of decision in a major conflict; artillery kills them far too easily. If you can change that, it will be an epoch-making weapon, something akin to the first tanks or the ironclad in importance.

[SpardaSon21]

Yeah, but then we stop using small-arms and go to assault rifles firing mass-reactive miniature RPG's.

[General Battuta]

Yeah, but then we stop using small-arms and go to assault rifles firing mass-reactive miniature RPG's.

Still a very different ballgame from fragmentation weapons.

Imagine that you're playing an RTS game where you counter large blobs of small units with splash damage weapons...and suddenly splash damage stops working.

[SpardaSon21]

Well, if we use power-armored soldiers, I doubt we'll be using them in large blobs due to cost.  And someone will find a way to counter them cheaply and effectively, and the best way to do that is to just use bigger guns.  NGTM-1 thinks being able to stop anything short of .50 caliber rounds will help, except it is cheaper to have a bunch of .50's lying around in case of power armor than it is to have the power armor.  Armor really only works if it forces your opponent to have a major shift in tactics or to develop new weapons, and having a suit of armor that needs a simple pintle-mounted .50 to penetrate it may not be that useful.  At that point you're better off with dragonskin armor for cost-effectiveness, especially since I've seen a video that had a dragonskin vest be literally on top of an exploding frag grenade and not have any shrapnel penetrate through the armor.

[Scotty]

Yeah, but then we stop using small-arms and go to assault rifles firing mass-reactive miniature RPG's.

Still a very different ballgame from fragmentation weapons.

Imagine that you're playing an RTS game where you counter large blobs of small units with splash damage weapons...and suddenly splash damage stops working.

Then you start countering with directed explosives and volume of fire.

[Turambar]

Then you start countering with directed explosives and volume of fire.

yeah, but our usual enemies can't really afford that ****, so it would be good for the 'modern battlefield' where we send in a highly equipped super-army to take on what are essentially desert rednecks.

[General Battuta]

Well, if we use power-armored soldiers, I doubt we'll be using them in large blobs due to cost.  And someone will find a way to counter them cheaply and effectively, and the best way to do that is to just use bigger guns.  NGTM-1 thinks being able to stop anything short of .50 caliber rounds will help, except it is cheaper to have a bunch of .50's lying around in case of power armor than it is to have the power armor.  Armor really only works if it forces your opponent to have a major shift in tactics or to develop new weapons, and having a suit of armor that needs a simple pintle-mounted .50 to penetrate it may not be that useful.  At that point you're better off with dragonskin armor for cost-effectiveness, especially since I've seen a video that had a dragonskin vest be literally on top of an exploding frag grenade and not have any shrapnel penetrate through the armor.

Very silly!

'A simple pintle-minted .50'. Not simple. Not cheap. Not common. Not...man-portable.

You cannot pretend that it's as easy to acquire, transport and equip a bunch of fifties as it is a bunch of AKs or RPGs.

What you're arguing is that armor isn't worth having if there's a weapon that can defeat it. Yet body armor in Iraq has rendered the casualty rate so ridiculously low - even in cases of direct mortar fire - that medical science has had to open up whole new fields to deal with injuries to people who would otherwise have been dead. And this body armor can be defeated by average infantry weapons.

Armor that can defeat everything up to a .50 would be a massive change.

Not to mention you're ignoring casualties due to things that probably take down far more soldiers than bullets or explosives: heatstroke, exhaustion...power armor can prevent these while enhancing mobility.

Let me go back and call out the most ridiculous statement in there:

Armor really only works if it forces your opponent to have a major shift in tactics or to develop new weapons,

The combat armor used by troops in Iraq works. Unquestionably it works.

It has not forced or required opponents to shift their tactics or develop new weapons. They still use AKs, RPGs and mortars. They still kill American soldiers with them.

They just don't do it as well, or as often.

The armor works.

Yeah, but then we stop using small-arms and go to assault rifles firing mass-reactive miniature RPG's.

Still a very different ballgame from fragmentation weapons.

Imagine that you're playing an RTS game where you counter large blobs of small units with splash damage weapons...and suddenly splash damage stops working.

Then you start countering with directed explosives and volume of fire.

Also absurd. What you're suggesting is a completely different matter from fragmentation weapons - more difficult, requiring more equipment, more precision, more training, line of sight, and more people.

Infantry warfare would need to be totally redefined. COIN and asymmetrical warfare would also change, because your average insurgent group can't manage what you're suggesting.

[castor]

The armor doesn't have to be performance-enhancing; it merely has to be performance-neutral, canceling out its own increased weight and keeping gross speed and reaction times similar despite increased weight.

I think that is next to impossible to achieve. Consider walking into an ambush when "equipped" with one of these - having maybe a fraction of a second to find cover before you get hit. All the delay that comes from the gear will only add to that which is intrinsic to human performance (and it gets only worse if carrying an unnaturely heavy load).

[General Battuta]

The armor doesn't have to be performance-enhancing; it merely has to be performance-neutral, canceling out its own increased weight and keeping gross speed and reaction times similar despite increased weight.

I think that is next to impossible to achieve. Consider walking into an ambush when "equipped" with one of these - having maybe a fraction of a second to find cover before you get hit. All the delay that comes from the gear will only add to that which is intrinsic to human performance (and it gets only worse if carrying an unnaturely heavy load).

It's perfectly possible that a power armoured soldier carrying tons of gear will be faster than today's soldiers, who also carry tons of gear. Soldiers today carry unnaturally heavy loads, and they don't have exoskeletons to help out.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

I don't know if any of you have actually seen this stuff demonstrated but it's pretty impressive.  As long as it has power there is no added weight.  They had a guy lifting a 250lb bomb (dummy) with one.  He gave up after a couple hundred reps due to boredom and that was with the first generation.  They are on at least the second generation now. 

As for the carrying vs armor well the suit can pick up the normal load leaving the wearer to be able to wear full armor like dragonskin that can take a grenade at point blank.  It could also be equipped with countermeasures that can shoot down incoming mortars (and yes we have that tech too).

Also thing of the sensors and computing power you can put on that. One of the biggest drawbacks of the future warrior program is the weight of the equipment.  This would cancel that out entirely.   

[StarSlayer]

The armor doesn't have to be performance-enhancing; it merely has to be performance-neutral, canceling out its own increased weight and keeping gross speed and reaction times similar despite increased weight.

I think that is next to impossible to achieve. Consider walking into an ambush when "equipped" with one of these - having maybe a fraction of a second to find cover before you get hit. All the delay that comes from the gear will only add to that which is intrinsic to human performance (and it gets only worse if carrying an unnaturely heavy load).

Battuta's on the right track.  It's perfectly possible that a power armoured soldier carrying tons of gear will be faster than today's soldiers, who also carry tons of gear. Soldiers today carry unnaturally heavy loads, and they don't have exoskeletons to help out.

Modern infantry carry around 80 plus pounds of body armor, ammo, water and other gear.  Generally an infantryman is only going to get one good short sprint with all that crap.  As I noted earlier if they could get an exoskeleton that didn't hinder movement and had a usable power supply, even if it didn't give them super human agility or allow them carry armor like an M1A2 just being able to move around the battlefield without having to bear the weight of their combat load themselves would be a big plus.

[Scotty]

Modern infantry carry about 80 pounds of gear if they're reasonably close to resupply.  My dad was a member of the 82nd Airborne, and when he dropped in with an M203, he carried 80 pounds in grenades on top of everything else.

Even if this exo-suit or whatever they call it doesn't enhance actual survivability by excpetionally much, if it allows more gear to be carried, that potentially could enhance survivability, without glaring drawbacks, it's very much worth it.