Author Topic: BP: War in Heaven discussion  (Read 550441 times)

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Offline Snail

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Indeed. Failure is always an option. ;)

 

Offline utops

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
How UE officer was aware about Koth martyr deeds ?
What if ?

 

Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
When the Ships from the 14th Battlegroup defected, they had copies of the GTVA's military-historical database.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline Snail

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Given that they got an entire logistics ship (GTL Solace) as well as an extremely important high-ranking officer (Bei), they probably got access to a lot more too (which more likely than not contributed to Severanti's conservative play-style).

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
How UE officer was aware about Koth martyr deeds ?


Indeed, as The_E said, the UEF has had eighteen months to review the GTVA's entire history, right up to very nearly the most classified level (since they have lots of great HUMINT). Being the UEF they've used this as much to print informational pamphlets to help their citizens understand the enemy as they have to gain any military advantage (though they've done that too).

 

Offline Liberator

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Ok, so having read the tech entries I'm still a little confuzzled.  The GTVA wants to wipe out or "forcibly reintegrate" with Sol because Sol is no being run by hippies who talk to non-dimensional whatsis who tell them what to do? 

I'll respond to that with a quote from the great film Midway:
Quote
Navy Intel:"Now, Admiral, I know it's thin..."

Admiral Nimitz:"Thin?  It's damn near invisible!"
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Ok, so having read the tech entries I'm still a little confuzzled.  The GTVA wants to wipe out or "forcibly reintegrate" with Sol because Sol is no being run by hippies who talk to non-dimensional whatsis who tell them what to do? 

I'll respond to that with a quote from the great film Midway:
Quote
Navy Intel:"Now, Admiral, I know it's thin..."

Admiral Nimitz:"Thin?  It's damn near invisible!"

They want to reintegrate Sol for several reasons (not the least of which is that Sol's economic power is about equal to the GTVA). They wish to integrate Sol because they fear that Ubuntu, if allowed to spread beyond Sol, would undermine the political fabric of the GTVA, which is heavily based on preparedness for a new Shivan assault.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline Liberator

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
That's still a razor thin reason for killing millions.  I mean it's been established that the GTVA cannot match the shivans on a military level, there are simply too many of them and the technological gulf is too vast.  My opinion would be let them have their little hippie sit in as long as we get their shipyards and manpower.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
First of all, "killing millions" is not on the cards. Second, well.... you can't get Sol's economic power without getting the reason for that power as well; and as has been established, the GTVA fears that widespread adoption of Ubuntu would compromise the GTVA's warfighting capability.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
That's still a razor thin reason for killing millions.  I mean it's been established that the GTVA cannot match the shivans on a military level, there are simply too many of them and the technological gulf is too vast.  My opinion would be let them have their little hippie sit in as long as we get their shipyards and manpower.

The GTVA believes that if the Ubuntu government is not unseated the GTVA will collapse in the face of Ubuntu's viral spread. It's an us-or-them situation for them.

The GTVA does believe that it can meet the Shivan threat.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Obvious solution: shut down the portal.

 

Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Obvious problem: The promise of eventual reunion with Sol was a big factor in allowing the GTVA survive; It is still very much in deep economic and social trouble. They need Earth to continue on, if they would shut down the gate, you'd probably get a lot of resentment against the GTVA, leading to its eventual collapse. This, in the GTVA's mind, is unacceptable, as it sees itself as the only thing that can save humanity.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
GTVA society was headed for some kind of social collapse in the near future anyway; the Alliance has never (according to FS canon) been much of a sociopolitical power, and its leadership fears a repeat of the post-Lucifer meltdown if it can't find a way to extend its control (and I mean that in the sense of realpolitik, not some kind of sinister military state). The war with the Federation solves a great many problems, including, hopefully, this one.

 

Offline Liberator

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
The war doesn't solve the problem, it merely redirects attention from it.  The fact remains, you cannot stimulate an economy by dumping money into it, especially once you have obliterated it's ability to produce.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
The war doesn't solve the problem, it merely redirects attention from it.  The fact remains, you cannot stimulate an economy by dumping money into it, especially once you have obliterated it's ability to produce.

Please reread the previous posts and the techroom. The invasion is not designed to stimulate anybody's economy (though you should probably be aware that the neoclassical conservative school of economic thought that currently dominates, the Chicago School - which advocates a strong free market and deregulation with limited government intervention - believes that the best way to guide an economy out of a recession is to keep spending up.)

But that's immaterial. The invasion happens because of this:

You open the gate to Sol after eighteen years of focusing your entire civilization on it. This is literally the hope that has kept your government and your population together.

You find that it is under the control of a religious government with a non-elected leadership that can and probably will rapidly take control of your entire population.

Furthermore your assessment is that the government is totally unprepared to fight the Shivans and that if they gain control over human space your entire species will be in danger.

Worst of all there are hints that their leaders are taking advice from and possibly under the control of those mysterious alien powers that you've been getting hints of for a long time.

You have two choices: watch your government disintegrate as a massive return-to-Sol movement rips the colonies apart, handing control over to the Federation and its dubiously prepared and dubiously trustworthy leadership, or turn to your list of...less wholesome contingencies.

What do you do?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 05:51:41 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
The GTVA does believe that it can meet the Shivan threat.
That always sounded **** to me, especially since they have the records of the Orestes' battlegroup. Either they are REALLY blind, or they have some kind of superweapon somewhere. I'd say the first one.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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Offline Liberator

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
What I think is this:

You are mistaken to think that the "colonies" are worthless without Sol.  Counting your 18 years, it's been close to half a century since the node was collapsed, it's the height of arrogance to think that the individual planets don't have at least a similar level of industrial infrastructure as Sol.  If anything Sol would be closer to be a used up husk of a star system than say Delta Serp or something since it's been industrialized longer.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline The E

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Oh, the colonies aren't worthless, not by a long shot. But they're also heavily dispersed across several star systems, while everything is in one place in Sol. Not to mention that Sol's infrastructure is the most highly developed, most efficient one in the entire GTVA.

In addition, "used up husk"? Sometimes, we tend to forget just how big star systems really are. Exploiting one to the point of where it's unusable is very, very hard.
Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
What I think is this:

You are mistaken to think that the "colonies" are worthless without Sol.  Counting your 18 years, it's been close to half a century since the node was collapsed, it's the height of arrogance to think that the individual planets don't have at least a similar level of industrial infrastructure as Sol.  If anything Sol would be closer to be a used up husk of a star system than say Delta Serp or something since it's been industrialized longer.

Who said anything about the colonies being worthless without Sol?

I'm honestly not sure we can continue this discussion until you begin reading the posts aimed at you. This is not a matter of industry alone, not at all.

But if you want to focus on industry, let's talk about FS canon.

By FreeSpace canon the colonies lost the bulk of their industrial base with Sol. Since then they have splintered, reunified, beaten off a second Shivan incursion, lost a major system and slumped into a depression.

Sol, which had the bulk of all human industry at the time of the Isolation, went through a collapse and then a boom. It is a solar system. Its sum total population could not begin to come close to denting all the resources present in it. The asteroid belt alone could feed the industrialization of Sol for centuries to come.

Given that Capella was a major system with only a few million inhabitants, there is no way that the summed industry of the colonies matches Sol, even - perhaps even especially - fifty years later.

Again, this is all by FreeSpace canon and extrapolation thereof.

But it's not matter of industry alone. Sol is a symbol.

Did you read the previous posts aimed at you? Did you see the points made in the previous one enumerating the reasons for the invasion? Economics are one driving force but not the only one.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
It's not you to decide that Liberator, it's already made pretty clear in the BP fluff.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Homeworld: Blue Planet     -     Help us help you     -     FSO Installer     -     BP extras portal     -     My legacy

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie