Author Topic: BP: War in Heaven discussion  (Read 543074 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline -Norbert-

  • 211
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Could we stop this mary sue stuff and get back to war in heaven please?

  

Offline Dilmah G

  • Failed juggling
  • 211
  • The Token "G" of HLP
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Second that request, over.

Trash/NGTM-1R, whilst I have my own views on the subject of discussion between the two of you, I'd like to politely ask that you take the next phases of your discussion to PMs.


Herra: I agree with your point there, although I don't think that it's apparent to the GTVA as of yet (should it be? Perhaps the Ancient monologues were never fully studied?). In their minds, I'd guess that it's a question of "When the Shivans return," rather then "Why do they keep f*cking coming back and how do we motherf*cking stop them?"
Trendy Lefty. Good music from a good friend of mine.

Freespace Rap: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,62924.0.html

The Fighter Pilot Series: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=72431.msg1431423#msg1431423

The word 'Yo' is only ever to be used as a singular greeting.
It is considered an insult to destroy a perfectly acceptable greeting by misuse. A 'Yo-Yo' is a toy spun from the index finger by small children and enthusiasts,
any such use as a greeting will result in prompt reprimand by any member of the 'African-American' or 'Sri-Lankans-who-think-they're-black' community

Fury`: if General Krav Maga wouldn't be enough, beating up 16 teenagers is going to get me into jail :p /
BlackMan: Maybe if you turned into pedobear you'd be more of a threat

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
However, consider this: Based on FS1 monologues, what kind of factions do the Shivans go after?

Multiple readings are possible. For example, meditate upon this line:

Quote
We know when we entered subspace we were trespassers.

The Ancients monologue speaks of a specific crime, a specific sin. "Now we know our crime was sin."

It speaks of such sins after their imperialist expansionist tendancies, so it is at best an extremely tortured construction that they were referring to such things. Instead, the closest that would come to an identification of sin is the trepassing.

Subspace is also mentioned in more than one of the monologues, three of them in fact, but imperialism only one.


And also, this one:

Quote
In the Vasudan war, we learned how to adapt, we learned how to study our enemy, we learned how to overcome, we learned how to survive. And so we did.

Alpha 1 lays it out. Humanity survived, the Vasudans survived, because they were strong, because they were prepared and capable of fighting for it.


And both these ignore the vital point: It doesn't matter whether you're imperialist or not. It matters only that you be curious. The Shivans do not arrive from extradimensional unreachable homes to destroy those who break their rules. They did not for the Ancients and they did not for FS2. They are here, now, and they await the unwary as they awaited Bosch's effort to find them. Even harmless exploration could bring down the wrath of the Shivans upon you. Unless you're posisting that Ubuntu is so insular it will never even explore beyond known space, some day they will meet the Shivans once more. And they will not be ready for it, they will not be able to buy they few days necessary to throw a pile of Meson bombs down the node and render themselves safe again.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Isn't that a bit of a Chosen Mary Sue thing right there?

le sigh

The trope has clearly started being overapplied when characters like Luke Skywalker or Frodo start being labeled 'Mary Sues'.

Neither Laporte nor Bei qualify.

Who said that that Frodo or Luke are Sues?
Also, weather Laporte or Bei qualify is very much debatable. I say they do.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline TrashMan

  • T-tower Avenger. srsly.
  • 213
  • God-Emperor of your kind!
    • Minecraft
    • FLAMES OF WAR
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
*SNIP*

I see you quoted only PART of the definition..the one that suits you best. The other is nicely ignored.


Quote
Only in your head, Trash. Only in your head.

So let me ask you this. Do you in fact understand the terms you throw around so casually? Are you a writer? Are you a fandom writer? Do you deal with this terminology day in and day out? I am, I am, and I do. I have some conception of what I'm actually talking about here because I need to. From whence comes your expertise on the subject?

Yes, I understand the terms perfectly. No, I do not write fanfics. I have written a few short stories for my own amusement - short and original stories. Never did finish them tough.
99% of fanfic writers are out of touch with reality IMHO, so you indentifying yourself as one doesn't do nothing to improve your case.

"I write fanfic, therefore I understand this stuff because I need to".. LOL. Don't make me laugh. As if writing automaticly implies knowledge and understanding. If there were the case, the term Mary Sue wouldnt' even exist.

And the very fact that you latch on to the "Mary Sue" definition and denounce it based on sex (Bei is male, not female), makes it clear you don't really grasp the term.


EDIT: (bit late reading that last request)... Fince, if you want to talk further, PM.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Ypoknons

  • Ancient
  • 28
    • http://www.xwaupgrade.com
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
The thing is, we don't know exactly what the Ancients did, and we have very little information on both Shivan or Vishnan motives. Moreover, the Shivans might have 'gone rouge' after AoA, depending how you interpret the conversation and how it applies to our FS universe, and that adds another layer of complexity.

What is useful is to examine the organizations in the conflict in detail rather than use generalizations. But it's hard to evaluate both sides so early in the big picture of BP, frankly. I do have some sympathy for the UEF, I'd to examine Ubuntu society in more detail, but I doubt it's utopia.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 11:01:09 am by Ypoknons »
Long time ago, you see, there was this thing called the VBB and... oh, nevermind.

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

  • Captain Oblivious
  • 212
  • Prevents attraction.
    • Wordpress.com Blog
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
How would the Shivans have "gone rogue" after AoA?
My blog

Quote: Wednesday, 6 November 2019, 1845hrs UTC, #gaming
The_E
behold the power of this fully armed and operational recluse

z64555
but does it destroy planets with a turbo laser

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
How would the Shivans have "gone rogue" after AoA?
Abandoned their place on the council. Giving the proverbial finger to the Vishnans.

 

Offline -Norbert-

  • 211
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
[...]some day they will meet the Shivans once more. And they will not be ready for it, they will not be able to buy they few days necessary to throw a pile of Meson bombs down the node and render themselves safe again.
And why do you assume that the UEF would behave the same way in an open universe as they did in isolation?

It's like saying that if someone lives all alone on an island and doesn't lock the door, then inevitably he won't lock his door even after moving into a city with high crime rate....

The Shivans didn't show up in more than four decades, so they gradually reduced their military. But with the node open again, the Shivans are no longer a nightmare from the past, but again a very real threat. And considering the role of the Elders I doubt they could talk the Jovians and Marsians out of building up their military in case of a return of the Shivans even if they wanted to. The Earthers maybe, the other two... I very much doubt it.

Just becasue they try and try to negociate with the GTVA doesn't mean they'll do the same with the Shivans. They know very well that the old GTA and PVN both tried and failed to even speak with the Shivans. And I don't think they'd put their faith in ETAK plans either, considering what happened to Bosh. That is, if the GTVA was sloppy enough in their coverup for the UEF to ever learn about that matter.

Quote
and render themselves safe again.
Didn't you just say that the Shivans will inevitably return some day? In that case there is no "safe" in your definition, just a "not in open combat at the moment".

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • Global Moderator
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Just becasue they try and try to negociate with the GTVA doesn't mean they'll do the same with the Shivans. They know very well that the old GTA and PVN both tried and failed to even speak with the Shivans. And I don't think they'd put their faith in ETAK plans either, considering what happened to Bosh. That is, if the GTVA was sloppy enough in their coverup for the UEF to ever learn about that matter.

Play Mission 11 again, and look at the techroom afterwards.....

Let there be light
Let there be moon
Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
--Devin Townsend, Genesis

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Pretty nice gift.

:shaking:

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
And why do you assume that the UEF would behave the same way in an open universe as they did in isolation?

Why do you assume they won't? The military was not neglected because they didn't need it. If they really thought they didn't need a military we wouldn't have a WiH at all. The UEF has multiple destroyers and a swarm of frigates large enough to count as a serious force.

The military was neglected because by its existence it goes against Ubuntu's ideals. The lack of an existing threat compounds the problem, but let's be honest here: for the size of the resources available to them, the UEF has a very respectable force. It's simply also a very poorly designed force to fight the Shivans. Since the Shivans were the only reasonable threat the UEF military could have been designed to fight, this does not say good things about their tactical and strategic thought or the ability of the UEF as a society to produce the kind of people needed to fight such a war. They haven't made nearly the same scale of technical innovation the GTVA has in longer period of time then the GTVA did; no beam cannon, no Kayser, many of their weapons are almost retrograde in terms of sophistication with their reliance on projectiles.

The evidence that Ubuntu will keep pace enough to mount a credible defense just isn't there.

Didn't you just say that the Shivans will inevitably return some day? In that case there is no "safe" in your definition, just a "not in open combat at the moment".

True. But there is temporary safety; successfully defending yourself and shutting entry points. Eventually you might run out of room, but maybe not. It seems unlikely that known space is completely ringed with Shivans.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I think the UEF could cut it in a war with the Shivans, however it all depends on if they want to devote Sol to being the arsenal of survival for Terrans and Vasudans.  They have the industry, economy, and R&D capability, however it is unclear if they are willing to actually utilize those resources in the capacity and quantity needed for a total war of survival.  The naivete of the Elders about pressing for a diplomatic solution without having the means to force the GTVA to the bargaining table speaks poorly for their ability to ensure the survival of Sol against a foe who gives no quarter and no mercy, such as the Shivans.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
no Kayser, many of their weapons are almost retrograde in terms of sophistication with their reliance on projectiles

The Rapier performs as well as the Kayser. Weapons like the Sidhe and UX Accelerator arguably outstrip it. And it's hard to call those projectile weapons obsolete when so many of them (UX Accelerator and Redeemer, for instance) are highly sophisticated antimatter-cored weapons.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
no Kayser, many of their weapons are almost retrograde in terms of sophistication with their reliance on projectiles

The Rapier performs as well as the Kayser. Weapons like the Sidhe and UX Accelerator arguably outstrip it. And it's hard to call those projectile weapons obsolete when so many of them (UX Accelerator and Redeemer, for instance) are highly sophisticated antimatter-cored weapons.

I was more specifically singling out their shipboard main batteries. :P I'm not saying they're obselete; I'm saying they're low-technology solutions. You run out of those a lot faster.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
no Kayser, many of their weapons are almost retrograde in terms of sophistication with their reliance on projectiles

The Rapier performs as well as the Kayser. Weapons like the Sidhe and UX Accelerator arguably outstrip it. And it's hard to call those projectile weapons obsolete when so many of them (UX Accelerator and Redeemer, for instance) are highly sophisticated antimatter-cored weapons.

I was more specifically singling out their shipboard main batteries. :P I'm not saying they're obselete; I'm saying they're low-technology solutions. You run out of those a lot faster.

Yeah, with the exception of their CIWS the UEF warship guns definitely underperform their GTVA counterparts.

That said...they can do things the GTVA weapons can't. They're much better at knocking out turrets and subsystems from range, for one. Makes me curious as to how UEF ships would perform versus Shivans; somebody should FRED up a mission.

Speculating about performance vs. the Shivans is going to be difficult simply because the Shivans are so unpredictable, both in terms of their tactics and their technological development. Who knows what they'll be shooting at us if they show up again?

 

Offline Qent

  • 29
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
In addition to the subsystem-sniping capships, the UEF also has some pretty tough fighters, bombers, and frigates to carry them. Shivans already have trouble with GTVA fighters.

However, I would like to see how GTVA tactics and hardware from WiH perform against Shivans. SSMs, Maxim strikes, and popup Trebuchet strikes are really cool; and I've never seen them used explicitly before now. :(
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 01:21:58 pm by Qent »

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
no Kayser, many of their weapons are almost retrograde in terms of sophistication with their reliance on projectiles

The Rapier performs as well as the Kayser. Weapons like the Sidhe and UX Accelerator arguably outstrip it. And it's hard to call those projectile weapons obsolete when so many of them (UX Accelerator and Redeemer, for instance) are highly sophisticated antimatter-cored weapons.

I was more specifically singling out their shipboard main batteries. :P I'm not saying they're obselete; I'm saying they're low-technology solutions. You run out of those a lot faster.
I'm reminded of Stargate here: "Our weapons may be primitive, but they are effective."  I'm pretty sure the UEF could make main batteries that outstrip the capabilities of GTVA beam cannons if they had the desire, and more importantly, the time.  A Solaris destroyer with a spinal high-caliber railgun meant for anti-destroyer combat would be simply frightening with the range and damage potential of that weapon, especially backed up by the potent on-board CIWS to deter fighters and bombers.  Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a ***** in space after all.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline Droid803

  • Trusted poster of legit stuff
  • 213
  • /人 ◕ ‿‿ ◕ 人\ Do you want to be a Magical Girl?
    • Skype
    • Steam
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Hey, if low-tech works, sticking to low tech makes sense.
Less likely for **** to mess up.
(´・ω・`)
=============================================================

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
In addition to the subsystem-sniping capships, the UEF also has some pretty tough fighters, bombers, and frigates to carry them. Shivans already have trouble with GTVA fighters.

You're forgetting the reason UEF fighters perform so well is because they're designed for all these things at the expense of staying power, where the GTVA went the other way to stand off endless waves of Shivan fightercraft. UEF fighter screens would most likely crumble under sustained pressure that the GTVA couldn't afford to apply but the Shivans can.

Hey, if low-tech works, sticking to low tech makes sense.

Yeah, but Battuta accidentally illustrated my point by pointing out the antimatter-based projectile applications. Once you've gotten there, you're more or less deadended. You can't make a fundementally better weapon.  Projectile-based technology is tapped out and would be very difficult to further improve upon.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story