Author Topic: US stem cell research sabotaged again  (Read 12908 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
Another argument I hate:  What if the aborted child was going to be the next Einstein, or cure cancer?  Well that's a moot point, he's equally likely to be a jackass, a murdering rapist, or the next Hitler (how many posts till Godwin's?).  So it doesn't really work to argue with hypotheticals like that.

Given the state of the care system it's more likely that he'll rob and kill the next Einstein anyway. :p
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Offline Scotty

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
If someone has been raped, so be it.

How come the fetus's life suddenly doesn't matter when it's a rape baby? Come on, does a fetus's right to life trump the mother's right to not share her reproductive organs or not?

Because the victim has absolutely no control over it.  If you get pregnant you didn't feel like using contraceptives, that's when I'd say "tough ****."  If you got pregnant because some random person raped you in an alley, I don't think you should be penalized for it.

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
What if you did use contraceptives and they didn't work? Is the morning after pill okay in your book? This is where things get a little fuzzy...
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Offline chief1983

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
You're still assuming they qualify as victims, again ignoring the question I asked.  A victim is a living being that was sacrificed, but the fetus has a right to life that it doesn't have yet?  It can't be both alive and yet to be alive.  Pick one.

Redsniper, that basically highlights the fact that some people can't decide where their morals will let them sleep at night.  It's like the guy that walks up to the lady in a bar, and asks if she'll sleep with him for $1 million.  She says yes, then he says, ok, how about $50?  She says of course not, what kind of lady do you think I am, and he says we've already established that, now we're just negotiating.

My point is, you have to be able to clearly define solely in the terms of the development of the fetus, where it does and does not make sense to be ok with birth prevention.  To me, it would be before any detectable level of consciousness, and as we can get a fairly good idea of where that begins, generally after the first trimester, then that to me makes completely logical sense to be the cutoff date for an abortion.  The only acceptable cause to put it up for debate again is when there is a clear and present threat to the life of the mother.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 02:21:15 pm by chief1983 »
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Offline Scotty

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
You're still assuming they qualify as victims, again ignoring the question I asked.  A victim is a living being that was sacrificed, but the fetus has a right to life that it doesn't have yet?  It can't be both alive and yet to be alive.  Pick one.

What are you talking about?  The only person I referred to as a victim in that entire post is if someone is a victim of rape.  I apologize if that seems unclear, but I was replying to zack's question about rape victims.

As to the 'morning after pill,' I don't know enough of how that works to form a defensible opinion on it.

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
Oh snap my bad, thought you were referring to the fetus as a victim :P

I believe the morning after pill is a hormone overdose that causes your body to flush out the possibly fertilized egg.
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Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
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Offline Scotty

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
Is it even possible to confirm whether the egg is fertilized or not?

However, that seems to me to be an acceptable form of contraception.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
Is it even possible to confirm whether the egg is fertilized or not?

AFAIK, within the time frame a morning after pill is used for, no.
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Offline chief1983

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
Well, then, _can_ the egg be fertilized yet?  Either way, it's still just drawing the line at an arbitrary point.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
You know, I don't really care if it's all that arbitrary.  Sometimes an arbitrary setting can help one live with themselves (not saying this is the case here, since I'm not likely to ever be in that predicament).

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
If you're only willing to define an arbitrary point because it's where you're comfortable, seems like it would be kind of hard to legislate a particular point.  There has to be more thought put into why you'd pick a certain spot to try to put it into law.
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redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
I've never promoted a law for or against anything, only my opinion.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
If you got pregnant because some random person raped you in an alley, I don't think you should be penalized for it.

But it's not a penalty; every soul is a gift from the Lord! And fertilized eggs have souls, yo. It says so in the Bible.

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
The Bible says a lot of stuff.
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iamzack:  lays

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
Anyone ever hear of an abortion doctor being struck by lightning?

Priests? Yes. Statues of Jesus? Yes. Abortion Doctors? Nope. ;)

The something wonderfully ironic about that, either God is trying to tell us something, or lightning is nothing more than a discharge of magnetic potential and is entirely unaimed...

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
Is there a fetus' right to life at all?

Biology, specifically developmental biology and/or developmental genetics, says "no."  As the vast majority of conceptions end in natural abortion, it would seem that nature doesn't support a fetus' right to life.  Hell, nature doesn't support anything's right to life - you have to earn it (natural selection at work).

Can't wait to see how this turns out... =)
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
Is there a fetus' right to life at all?

Biology, specifically developmental biology and/or developmental genetics, says "no."  As the vast majority of conceptions end in natural abortion, it would seem that nature doesn't support a fetus' right to life.  Hell, nature doesn't support anything's right to life - you have to earn it (natural selection at work).

Can't wait to see how this turns out... =)

Quite so. If abortion is a new Holocaust, as some demagogues would have it, then whatever's been happening inside the human womb for millions of years is an ongoing, unending Black Plague of apocalyptic proportions...but nobody seems to be in a rush to stop it.

The failure rate is something like 85-98% (depending on whether you include failure to implant, as I recall).

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
The word "intent" does come to mind here...

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
The word "intent" does come to mind here...

Sure, and from some philosophical standpoints it's a valid one, but if you want to get upset over the deaths of fetuses, the magnitude of one slaughter so dwarfs the other that you can't ignore the greater one on that point alone. It'd be like ignoring a disease killing millions in order to pursue a murderer killing dozens.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: US stem cell research sabotaged again
If the disease in question is just about impossible to treat at the present time, though, there really isn't anything that one can do about it; in contrast, the murderer killing dozens can be stopped with relative ease.  And tying into the whole question of intent, I wouldn't even label the former case as a "slaughter," since at least to me that term implies some sort of conscious act of murder.

I guess my point here is that, from a purely functional standpoint, there's no difference at all between an 80-year-old man dying in his sleep of old age and an 80-year-old man being shot to death by a burglar.  However, there's obviously a massive difference from a legal or ethical standpoint.  In this case, spontaneous abortions/miscarriages represent a completely natural occurrence, whereas surgical abortions are a conscious premeditated action.