Author Topic: Netcode Dev Status?  (Read 11279 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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He's not describing how things should be, he's describing how they are. Telling him there's a problem isn't gonna help with that.

 

Offline JGZinv

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I understand where you're coming from Delta. I'm not a coder but I've been through
enough to realize packet loss, distance, and so forth has a role to play. 90% of the time
since Novalogic dropped their servers, the Tach community is doing the same client hosting
as the FS2 community is. Except in our case we've got one box in Europe and most players
are in the US.

I also realize that we're trying to force FS2 to work, when over the years it's been
updated and added on to significantly by FSU/SCP. We're throwing a lot more at the
engine than when it was originally setup. By the time our mod is done, I hope to be throwing
a lot more at the multiplayer end of things too.

The bottom line is just we need to find someone for the job. It needs to be inspected to
find out what it's condition really is, and then decide on fixing it. There's no doubt it's "broken"
as it stands.
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Offline chief1983

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We could consider trying to move to client-side hit detection, instead of host-side.  Half-Life did it way back when they released 1.1.0.0.  It may be a step backwards though.  That article is very against the concept, but there are benefits for it too.  I think it exaggerates the problems for low ping players, it really was closer to equaling out the playing field.  There's another explanation of this here.  There may be things we can do to expose more of the various timings to the player, assuming we have a similar set of timings, to allow them to make custom compensations depending on the situation.  We could even thinking about making some timings dynamic, based on the ping and packet loss.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 03:27:43 pm by chief1983 »
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Offline karajorma

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I really wish that people would stop saying we need to rewrite the code without having actually looked at it. Quite frankly no one knows why the net code is so laggy. It could be that it's perfectly good code and there is a bug that is resulting in it  running slowly.

I'm looking at it now but I'm not an expert. What we need is for someone with some actual skill in this area to look at the code and determine if this is in fact the case.

Deciding what we actually need to do to solve the problem is putting the cart before the horse. We need to figure out what the actual problem is before we try to solve it.

We could consider trying to move to client-side hit detection, instead of host-side. 

:v: tried that too. It's all been commented out by them though so it looks like it didn't work. 
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Clientside hit detection opens a bit of a scary can of worms for squadwars, I don't mind the idea but due to some of the quirks with some of the lag bugs clientside hit detection actually would seriously put a laggy player at a massive advantage.

Thaeris;

Again; FS2 is completely playable at about 200 ping, a local 56k connection (local meaning; national european sized countries) would register within this range to another 56k host.
A local (again, national), 1.5mbit host equates to anything between 10 and 80 ping, which is very very difficult to tell whether there is any actual lag or not.

A British 1.5mbit host to western america is about 150-200 ping, where people less able to cope will start finding problems.
To austrialia, probably close to 300, 400 ping.

the exaggerations of a great many people about the netcode really irks me.
For something like tach, or a FPS of the day (looking at you tribes) with many many players, no, FS2s netcode would not have been agreeable, however, considering the PXO community survived for 4 years? 5? with no memorable lag complaints for a patch on the network code - I personally think you are one of those crying about nothing.


Sure - compared to modern day games there is a massive difference, and sure, there is massive room for improvement, but honestly, having played this game for over 2 years on a 33.6k modem, and, normally for most of that on a .5mbit cable host in HAWAII, I honestly think most people can STFU. Simply in terms of global networking FS2's latency has improved and honestly so long as you get over your stupid predisposition about where **** should be instead of actually thinking about where it is the lag _doesn't_ effect you.
There is no "host advantage" (well....with two notable exceptions, hosts are the only ones that can /effectively/ shoot down bombs (I can sometimes on american hosts..most of the time on european hosts.. but no one else seems to be able to, and for me it's basically only because I move into a position where I'm actually shooting down the bombs path, if it's arcing I can't hit it at all)), and debris/spiny bits on ships don't work client side at all... debris is on the host and is invisible to the clients, clients debris is not on the host and intangible.

Other than that, in terms of **** moving around, and being hit by projectiles, is it so damn hard to think "well actually, where will this ship be in .2 seconds time?" - or if your ping is less than that, unless you're aiming at a subsystem on a fighter you just don't need to care.

to quote the second link on chiefs' post;
Quote
Why does it feel so smooth on my client even with high ping?
If you have played on a server with very high ping you feel that the weapons still are dead instant, when you hit that fire button the weapon reacts immediately and is being fired. In the new engine much of the multiplayer information is calculated on the client for visual effects. The client estimates were players are, it adds blood when you hit and also adds those bullet holes and marks on walls. But those are not true, they are only estimations and you never know if they are real. Only the server knows, and when you receive the correct update from the server the player that you aimed at will eventually die. And then you know for sure.
FS is the same.
Really, exactly the same.


While I do agree that something needs to be done to see if we can improve it (naturally, improvement is always good), the people who complain about it right now, are honestly just whining of the sake of it, and it grates on me because it puts people who would other wise have a fine time in multi, off playing it.
No, the netcode isn't perfect, but it's far from unplayable, so stop suggesting it is.
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Offline karajorma

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Clientside hit detection opens a bit of a scary can of worms for squadwars, I don't mind the idea but due to some of the quirks with some of the lag bugs clientside hit detection actually would seriously put a laggy player at a massive advantage.

Yep, that's one of my objections to it too. Along with the one I gave above.
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Offline chief1983

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Are there any files/functions of interest if one wanted to start looking at this themselves?  I keep getting lost just looking for what happens with the net code.
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Offline karajorma

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That's exactly my problem with it. Which is why I'm reading through the whole thing at the moment and trying to get a better idea of what happens where.
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Offline JGZinv

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Quote
The bottom line is just we need to find someone for the job. It needs to be inspected to
find out what it's condition really is, and then decide on fixing it.

Let's not have the thread fall apart on disagreements for the moment shall we?
It would appear at least, that everyone can agree on the quote above since we don't know
to what depths this rabbit hole goes. We can all agree that for some it may be sufficient, others
it is insufficient, and some don't know of that which they speak. All bases are covered.

So we need to find someone first off....  any constructive thoughts on where we might find
such a person? (I know that's borderline stupid obvious, if we knew already...)
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Offline Thaeris

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Quantum Delta, Good Sir, there's something you ought to keep in mind:

FS2 speeds are most of the time below 100m/s. Stellar Assault often plays at speeds in excess of 400m/s, FringeSpace is a little less, and something like Diaspora will probably come in third in terms of speed. Any bit of lag which was easily predicable before going at 65m/s is an entirely different story now. If your sole concern is multi in standard FS Open (FS2), then of course the current system isn't as great an issue. But, for every other game that doesn't fly at a snail's pace on the engine, there is a problem and it does make multi often less-than-enjoyable.

That said, if you'd ever be willing to test any of the other projects (and I assume you'd be well recieved) that perform in such a manner, I think you'd begin to see why we're making such a deal out of this.
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Offline chief1983

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Yeah, not only that, but FotG has speeds approaching that, as well as ships that are only about 12-15 m long.  Virtually impossible to hit even in single player without assistance for a normal person.  I'm worried that multi in its current state just won't be able to handle it.  We have computer-assisted targeting right now as it is, but in multi, hitting the ship every time, as has been stated, could result in an actual guaranteed miss every time.  BtRL also had somewhat smaller than FS2 ships and faster times, were similar lead tactics required in many matches to score an effective hit?
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iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
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iamzack:  lays

 

Offline JGZinv

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BtRL I can't speak much of, but the multi I did play, I went head to head against several foes
and even though I was hearing the "hit" sound... it took "a lot" of rounds to hurt anyone.
We'd run out of ammo in some cases... but that was a long while ago.

Lag was an understatement. But who knows what all the conditions were at the time.
I'd rather not get into more speculation.
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Offline karajorma

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BtRL games were more likely than not capped to low object update.

As I said on IRC everyone always plays on low updates and then complains that they have problems caused by low updates.
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You two drive me around the bend, seriously,
I even went to bed to avoid exploding at you after that post thaeris.

Just because your crappy mods are faster doesn't mean it's harder.
Just because your crappy ships are smaller, doesn't mean it's harder.

Kay?
Kay.

Thanks.

The speed and size of the Dragon isn't what makes it so hard to deal with.

The speeds and physics models of those mods make them much, much easier (read;boring) to predict where the opponent is going to be a few seconds after current, I feel sorry for you if you're unable to adjust your aim a few dozen meters.

JGZinv; You......really don't get it do you? If you're 'hearing the hit sound' you're probably doing it wrong.
*grumbles*.

I might kill someone soon :I
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Offline General Battuta

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If this takes one more step in the way it's going I'm gonna splitlock.

 

Offline Mura

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Thaeris, have you actually tried your mod on multiplayer mode already?
At such speeds i don't think we'll be seeing many maneuvers different from zoom and boom, and if you get tangled in a circle fight, well... the speed doesn't help you much there, so that wont be an issue.

But seriously, don't get concerned ahead of time, try it and see what happens first.
Signed, me

 

Offline JGZinv

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Disclosure: Thaeris hasn't played FringeSpace, he's helping us with models.
That said, the Stellar Assault team plays multi to test their mod on a regular basis
(as in a couple to a few times a week / day). I've been in a couple games with them.

FringeSpace has played amongst it's own team with multi.

I would note that Chief also mentioned FotG.

In the interest of keeping things chilled, I won't go back over what we observed in our own
tests/games for the time being. Whether or not the netcode is at fault, or sufficient, we don't
have a SCP coder that understands it fully. So it "still" boils down to we need someone new.

Delta - if you want to vent, the you're welcome to do so at me over PM. I might have a couple
questions anyway.
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Offline chief1983

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We may or may not need someone new, but we do need to put a focus on seeing if there is something wrong, which is what Karajorma started doing last night.  We may need to get a large group together for investigating the net code to see if there's a bug causing it to become unplayable with larger numbers of people or high updates, as high updates shouldn't be crashing games and should make a low ping group have a very playable experience, eliminating the ghost shots you've been having.  But we're hopefully capable of fixing a bug at this point, if that's indeed what it is.  However, more help is always nice, but I wouldn't say we _need_ it at this point.
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iamzack:  lays

 

Offline karajorma

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More coders are always welcome of course. :)
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Offline Mura

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i remember there's a packet tracking app that some dudes used for hacking games ( i don't remember which game, but i think it was an mmo), maybe start tracking the packages and test it during intense multi sessions could help?
I'm pretty sure there must other programs that could help as well, tho...
Signed, me